Names

Apostrophes in names stir lot o’ trouble
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080221/ap_on_hi_te/apostrophes_in_names

I came across this article today. It reminded me that there is another
option that might need to be added to CSL. In Dutch the articular is
not used for sorting, so “Klaas de Vries” need to be listed under the
V, but in some English lists it is listed under D. So we might want to
have an option for the bibliography tag named articular-ignored-for-
sort. I am not sure what would be the best default, mostly because
articulars aren’t common in English names, or aren’t seen as such.
Armin Van Buren becomes given_name:“Armin” articular:""
family_name:“Van Buren”. Therefore, a default of true might maybe even
make more sense.

Also, is it assumed that there is always a space between all the name
parts (except for the sort-separator of course)? Are there styles
where my name could need to be formatted as “J.Kool” instead “J. Kool”?

I am also going to extend my Name class with a separate initials
attribute. For example my dads initials are JW, but his name is Hans
(from Johannes). For full name citations it should be “Hans Kool” and
for others “J.W. Kool”.

Johan—
http://www.johankool.nl/

Oh, and for kicks, sometimes names like Theodore are initialized as
"Th." and “Johannes” as “Joh.”. Another option? Maybe use-long-
initials, certainly should default to false!

Johan—
http://www.johankool.nl/

abbreviate them.
Things like:
John Jones Jnr (Jnr, J. J.)
Sir Richard Attenborough (Attenborough, S. R. )
Dr Richard Doolittle the 3rd (you guess)

Julian.

Johan Kool wrote:

I came across this article today. It reminded me that there is another
option that might need to be added to CSL. In Dutch the articular is
not used for sorting, so “Klaas de Vries” need to be listed under the
V, but in some English lists it is listed under D. So we might want to
have an option for the bibliography tag named articular-ignored-for-
sort. I am not sure what would be the best default, mostly because
articulars aren’t common in English names, or aren’t seen as such.
Armin Van Buren becomes given_name:“Armin” articular:""
family_name:“Van Buren”. Therefore, a default of true might maybe even
make more sense.

But what happens when you have a mix of names; some which sort on the
articular, and some which don’t?

Also, would this be a CSL issue, or a simple matter of locale?

Also, is it assumed that there is always a space between all the name
parts (except for the sort-separator of course)? Are there styles
where my name could need to be formatted as “J.Kool” instead “J. Kool”?

I hope not :wink:

I am also going to extend my Name class with a separate initials
attribute. For example my dads initials are JW, but his name is Hans
(from Johannes). For full name citations it should be “Hans Kool” and
for others “J.W. Kool”.

Hmm … seems reasonable.

The main thing is, keep in mind that examples like “Mao Zedong” have a
primary sort key of “Mao”, so don’t hard-code assumptions about sort and
display.

Bruce

Johan Kool wrote:

I came across this article today. It reminded me that there is
another
option that might need to be added to CSL. In Dutch the articular is
not used for sorting, so “Klaas de Vries” need to be listed under the
V, but in some English lists it is listed under D. So we might want
to
have an option for the bibliography tag named articular-ignored-for-
sort. I am not sure what would be the best default, mostly because
articulars aren’t common in English names, or aren’t seen as such.
Armin Van Buren becomes given_name:“Armin” articular:""
family_name:“Van Buren”. Therefore, a default of true might maybe
even
make more sense.

But what happens when you have a mix of names; some which sort on the
articular, and some which don’t?

For those names that do sort on the articular (Van Buren under the V)
I would say those names do not actually have an articular, but rather
a family name that starts with "Van ". I would define the articular
as that first bit of the family name that is not involved in sorting.
Like the “D’” in your last name is not an articular in my eyes, unless
you would argue you should be listed under the A.

Also, would this be a CSL issue, or a simple matter of locale?

CSL. Dutch people get quoted in English magazines too.

Also, is it assumed that there is always a space between all the name
parts (except for the sort-separator of course)? Are there styles
where my name could need to be formatted as “J.Kool” instead “J.
Kool”?

I hope not :wink:

That does sound dangerous in this field! :slight_smile:

I am also going to extend my Name class with a separate initials
attribute. For example my dads initials are JW, but his name is Hans
(from Johannes). For full name citations it should be “Hans Kool” and
for others “J.W. Kool”.

Hmm … seems reasonable.

The main thing is, keep in mind that examples like “Mao Zedong” have a
primary sort key of “Mao”, so don’t hard-code assumptions about sort
and
display.

Isn’t the sort order (in case of names) always: family-name, given-
name (or initials if appropriate), suffix, prefix?Op 25 feb 2008, om 12:16 heeft Bruce D’Arcus het volgende geschreven:


http://www.johankool.nl/

Also, would this be a CSL issue, or a simple matter of locale?

So you’re suggesting the simple addition of a new option?

Isn’t the sort order (in case of names) always: family-name, given-
name (or initials if appropriate), suffix, prefix?

Yes, but display order differs. In (most? all?) Asian languages, it’s
family-given.

Bruce

Also, would this be a CSL issue, or a simple matter of locale?

So you’re suggesting the simple addition of a new option?

Exactly. An option for the bibliography tag named articular-ignored-
for-sort, defaulting to true.

Isn’t the sort order (in case of names) always: family-name, given-
name (or initials if appropriate), suffix, prefix?

Yes, but display order differs. In (most? all?) Asian languages, it’s
family-given.

Related to that: I know some Indonesians go with only one name, which
is the given name (afaik). So I think that the implicit rule for
initialization should be that it only occurs if there is a family
name. If we initialize someones given name without him having a full
name we end up quoting e.g. “S.” which might proof hard to track down…

JohanOp 25 feb 2008, om 13:49 heeft Bruce D’Arcus het volgende geschreven:

On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Johan Kool <@Johan_Kool2> > wrote:


http://www.johankool.nl/

Isn’t the sort order (in case of names) always: family-name, given-
name (or initials if appropriate), suffix, prefix?

Yes, but display order differs. In (most? all?) Asian languages, it’s
family-given.

According to http://rishida.net/blog/?p=100 (a good resource that Bruce
linked to on his blog a few months ago):

“Icelanders prefer to be called by their given name (Bj�rk), or by their
full name (Bj�rk Gu�mundsd�ttir). Bj�rk wouldn�t normally expect to be
called Ms. Gu�mundsd�ttir. Telephone directories in Iceland are sorted
by given name.”

I don’t know if Icelandic bibliographic styles follow the same
convention as their phonebooks, but always sorting by family name seems
like a questionable assumption, as does, based on other examples on that
page, any attempt at separating names into discrete parts. For example,
it’s not immediately clear where to put a middle name if you have family
and given name fields and the sort order is family-middle-given, which
that page says is the case in Vietnam. And then there’s “Abu Karim
Muhammad al-Jamil ibn Nidal ibn Abdulaziz al-Filistini”.

Based on these and other issues, on the Zotero dev list the other day I
said this:

We’re planning to add another per-creator field for short citation
name. It’d be useful both for organizations [e.g., “Center for History
and New Media” cited in-text as “CHNM”] as well as to handle names
with different sort orders [“Mao Zedong” cited in-text as “Mao”], such
that you could use the single-field creator mode and not have the
entire name appear in citations. (This wouldn’t help with sorting, so
it may be necessary to have a sort field for each creator as well.)

While it would be nice to have display and sort order settings that
persisted when a user was entering creators rather than requiring the
user to enter the same name in multiple forms, it seems that any
solution that asks the user to enter discrete parts for non-Western
names might be inadequate. What we’re proposing might be insufficient
for other reasons, however.

Hi All,

I’m new to this list. I found CSL while researching solutions for
formatting citations in the NLM journal publishing DTD nlm-citation
format. This discussion may be interested in @name-style in that DTD:

Value: Meaning
eastern: The name will both be displayed and sorted/inverted with the
family name preceding the given name.
islensk: The name will both be displayed and sorted/inverted with the
given name preceding the family name.
western: The name will be displayed with the given name preceding the
family name but will be sorted/inverted with the family name preceding
the given name.
Default value: western

http://dtd.nlm.nih.gov/publishing/tag-library/2.3/n-zwg0.html

Nick Nunes
HighWire Press

Nick Nunes wrote:

Hi All,

Hi Nick.

I’m new to this list. I found CSL while researching solutions for
formatting citations in the NLM journal publishing DTD nlm-citation
format. This discussion may be interested in @name-style in that DTD:

Value: Meaning
eastern: The name will both be displayed and sorted/inverted with the
family name preceding the given name.
islensk: The name will both be displayed and sorted/inverted with the
given name preceding the family name.
western: The name will be displayed with the given name preceding the
family name but will be sorted/inverted with the family name preceding
the given name.
Default value: western

This is useful; thanks! It seems to show that Western names are the oddity.

I wonder, though, what the other two styles do about initialization and
other kinds of shortening?

I presume, for example, that a short citation in the Eastern style would
use just the family, as it would in Western. But would one initialize
the given name (“Mao Z.”)??

What about the islensk style?

I don’t think, in any case, any of this impacts CSL per se, but it would
be good to know for implementors.

Bruce