ancient texts in zotero 2.1 styles

Hi,

I have a question about the zotero 2.1 (with csl 1.0): will it be
possible to cite ancient texts, which have locators after the title of
book (in the field of philosophy and theology)?
I need to know if with one single style I can cite two different forms:

  1. for contemporary books:
    1. Jean-Luc Marion, Dieu sans l’être, Quadrige / Presse
      Universitaire de France, Paris, 1991, pp. 55-58.
  2. for ancient texts:
    1. Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, VII, 3, 1029 a, translated by
      Translator, Publisher, City, Year, p. 247.

In the second example, in the locator after the title of book, I can use
only numbers (without book, section etc.); I have also the page number
at the end, but this is important only for first citation of this
ancient text. The subsequent citacions will be just like this:
Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, VII, 3, 1029 a.

EndNote uses a different item type, named Ancient Text, but Zotero have
only one item type, Book.
Maybe it is possible to make the difference of book and ancient book in
csl 1.0?
I know that I can manualy introduce these data, but if Zotero exists,
why don’t we have this possibility?

Thank you very much,

Nicolae Turcan

Let’s leave aside how it’s done in Endnote for a minute.

So to be precise, the data that you need here are:

  1. volume
  2. section
  3. _____ ?

And these are “point citation” details analogous to page numbers for
more typical texts?

E.g. you’d want to enter these in the citation dialog, as opposed to
the item panel?

Bruce

Oh, sorry, I thought this was a Zotero question. But I want to first
establish what the issue is; am not convinced there’s any limitation
in CSL.

Pe 27.09.2010 21:25, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

Hi,

I have a question about the zotero 2.1 (with csl 1.0): will it be possible
to cite ancient texts, which have locators after the title of book (in the
field of philosophy and theology)?
I need to know if with one single style I can cite two different forms:

for contemporary books:

Jean-Luc Marion, Dieu sans l’être, Quadrige / Presse Universitaire de
France, Paris, 1991, pp. 55-58.

for ancient texts:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a, translated by Translator, Publisher,
City, Year, p. 247.

In the second example, in the locator after the title of book, I can use
only numbers (without book, section etc.); I have also the page number at
the end, but this is important only for first citation of this ancient text.
The subsequent citacions will be just like this: Aristotel, Metaphysics,
VII, 3, 1029 a.

EndNote uses a different item type, named Ancient Text, but Zotero have only
one item type, Book.
Maybe it is possible to make the difference of book and ancient book in csl
1.0?
I know that I can manualy introduce these data, but if Zotero exists, why
don’t we have this possibility?
Let’s leave aside how it’s done in Endnote for a minute.

So to be precise, the data that you need here are:

  1. volume
  2. section
  3. _____ ?

And these are “point citation” details analogous to page numbers for
more typical texts?

E.g. you’d want to enter these in the citation dialog, as opposed to
the item panel?

Bruce


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It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).
  2. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Thank you,

Nicolae

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce

I pinged Elena to see if she had any input, and here’s her response:

there is a related open ticket for multiple locators:

https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936

the linked discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. we
decided then that at least three locators would be required > for classical texts, but
maybe frank can come up with a different solution.

Does suggest to me this likely isn’t a CSL type issue, and needs to be
addressed in the client applications (allowing multiple locators) and
then maybe secondarily (??) in allowing CSL to configure the order of
these locators.

Bruce

Nicolae and Bruce–

Nicolae asked this question before:
http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en

This discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. We decided then that at least three locators would be required for classical texts, hence this open ticket:

https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936

But maybe Frank can come up with a better solution.

Best,
Elena

Nicolae and Bruce–

Nicolae asked this question before:
http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en

This discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. We decided then that at least three locators would be required for classical texts, hence this open ticket:

https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936

But maybe Frank can come up with a better solution.

Best,
Elena

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Related to Bruce’s followup query, a likely starting point for
untangling this will be the desired appearance in the bibliography.
Are the standard pinpoint locators on the ancient text side meant to
appear in the bibliography (which would make them part of the item)?
Or is only the title of the work to be listed, with all pinpoints
specific to a particular reference?

I found some sources that suggest that classical works are typically not
included in the bibliography:

APA:
http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html
"… reference list entries are not required when you cite “ancient Greek
and Roman works or classical religious works” (p. 179). These works are so
widely known and available that all that is required is an in-text
citation."

http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2006fall/ssp100/citations.pdf
"as long as you cite the works properly, you need not include the ancient
sources in your bibliography."

http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary (seems
to implicitly indicate the same)

The following style description (for CMoS) isn’t exactly clear whether
pinpoint locators ever make it into the bibliography:

http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details (see header “17.
Classics”)

RintzeOn Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Frank Bennett <@Frank_Bennett>wrote:

Related to Bruce’s followup query, a likely starting point for
untangling this will be the desired appearance in the bibliography.
Are the standard pinpoint locators on the ancient text side meant to
appear in the bibliography (which would make them part of the item)?
Or is only the title of the work to be listed, with all pinpoints
specific to a particular reference?

I found some sources that suggest that classical works are typically not included in the bibliography:

APA: http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html
"… reference list entries are not required when you cite “ancient Greek and Roman works or classical religious works” (p. 179). These works are so widely known and available that all that is required is an in-text citation."

http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2006fall/ssp100/citations.pdf
"as long as you cite the works properly, you need not include the ancient sources in your bibliography."

http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary (seems to implicitly indicate the same)

The following style description (for CMoS) isn’t exactly clear whether pinpoint locators ever make it into the bibliography:

http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details (see header “17. Classics”)

CMS 16:

"14.256 Where to cite classical references

Classical primary source references are ordinarily given in text or notes. They are included in a bibliography only when the reference is to information or annotation supplied by a modern author"

So the answer for CMS is no.

Best,
Elena

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).
    That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
    important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
    solutions.
  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce


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Hi,
I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple
positions of the different locators.
I have one single style (footnote & bibliography - Romanian Humanities
or INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

  1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.
    Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, VII, 4, 1008 a
  2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end;
    e.g. Turcan, /About Aristotel/, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these
different positions.
Thank you very much,

Nicolae

OK, I understand.

But are they really different positions, or does the first one just
not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)
in the first example?

Bruce

Pe 28.09.2010 20:24, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in
    Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and
    a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a
    citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only
    numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce


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Hi,
I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions
of the different locators.
I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or
INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

  1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.
    Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
  2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.
    Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these
different positions.
OK, I understand.

But are they really different positions, or does the first one just
not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)
in the first example?

Bruce


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There is no page number for the ancient text, in the field of philosophy
or theology. We need two positions. This is the reason for a new item
type, Ancient Text, would resolve this problem.

Thank you,

Nicolae

Are you reading everything I write? I think were talking past each other.

Pe 28.09.2010 20:24, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible
    in

Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text)
    and

a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
This is important for different kind of locators in different position
in a

citation:

  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words,
    only

numbers;

  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the
    number.On Sep 28, 2010 2:44 PM, “nturcan” <@nturcan> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce


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Hi,
I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple
positions

of the different locators.
I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or
INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

  1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.
    Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
  2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end;
    e.g.

Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these
different positions.
OK, I understand.

But are they really different positions, or does the first one just
not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)
in the first example?

Bruce


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There is no page number for the ancient text, in the field of philosophy
or theology. We need two positions. This is the reason for a new item
type, Ancient Text, would resolve this problem.

Thank you,

Nicolae


This might clarify things a bit:

So for “Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029a”, the “1029a” corresponds to
the page (position). More here:

Rintze

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in
    Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and
    a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a
    citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only
    numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce


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and start using them to simplify application deployment and
accelerate your shift to cloud computing.
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Hi,
I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions
of the different locators.
I have one single style (footnote & bibliography - Romanian Humanities or
INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

  1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.
    Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
  2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.
    Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these
different positions.

I think everyone understands the issue; we’re trying to work out a
smooth way of addressing it.

The INTER style is a footnote-with-bibliography style. One of my
questions was of which locators need to appear in the bibliography
(without variation through the document), and which need to appear in
footnotes only (and to vary across the document). Can you provide
that information?

Thanks,
Frank

Pe 28.09.2010 23:29, Frank Bennett a scris:> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 12:39 AM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan<@nturcan> wrote:

It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

  1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in
    Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to
solutions.

  1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and
    a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.
    This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a
    citation:
  • book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only
    numbers;
  • page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce


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and start using them to simplify application deployment and
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Hi,
I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions
of the different locators.
I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or
INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

  1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.
    Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
  2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.
    Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these
different positions.
I think everyone understands the issue; we’re trying to work out a
smooth way of addressing it.

The INTER style is a footnote-with-bibliography style. One of my
questions was of which locators need to appear in the bibliography
(without variation through the document), and which need to appear in
footnotes only (and to vary across the document). Can you provide
that information?

Thanks,
Frank

Thank you very much,

Nicolae


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The both types of locators appears only in the footnotes. No one in
bibliography.
Thanks,
Nicolae