CSL 1.0 in the wild

FYI: I haven’t run the software yet, but apparently the latest stable
release of Mendeley now also supports CSL 1.0:

http://www.mendeley.com/release-notes/v0_9_8/

and the link below suggests that a fork of the CSL repository has been made
(see the comment by Robert Knight):

http://feedback.mendeley.com/forums/4941-mendeley-feedback/suggestions/1121321-american-chemical-society-fetching-is-incorrect

Rintze

Hello,

FYI: I haven’t run the software yet, but apparently the latest stable
release of Mendeley now also supports CSL 1.0:

http://www.mendeley.com/release-notes/v0_9_8/

I thought that someone would say before than us… I have a mail in
the drafts waiting to release Mendeley Desktop 0.9.8.1 to announce it
here and in citeproc-js.

Also, CSL 1.0 and citeproc-js was in the wild but only web-wise. See
the Mendeley catalog, e.g.:


(it was properly announced here)

and the link below suggests that a fork of the CSL repository has been made
(see the comment by Robert Knight):
http://feedback.mendeley.com/forums/4941-mendeley-feedback/suggestions/1121321-american-chemical-society-fetching-is-incorrect

At the moment Mendeley Desktop gets the styles from a repository in
Mendeley Web, the idea is that this repository should be synced with
the “main repository” that every now and then we discuss here.
Personally I like that Mendeley Desktop communicates only, as far as
it’s possible, with Mendeley servers (easier to handle things like SSL
certificates, uptimes, firewalls in universities/companies, etc.)

I’ll use this email to say thank you once more to everyone,

Well, there is also Zotero 2.1b1, released September 17th, which uses
citeproc-js and CSL 1.0 :). But it’s great to see CSL 1.0 and citeproc-js
are being used in production.

I’ll use this email to say thank you once more to everyone

I’m also very happy to see CSL and citeproc-js being attributed at

http://www.mendeley.com/release-notes/v0_9_8/
and
http://www.mendeley.com/citationstyles/

RintzeOn Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Carles Pina <@Carles_Pina>wrote:

Hello,

FYI: I haven’t run the software yet, but apparently the latest stable
release of Mendeley now also supports CSL 1.0:

http://www.mendeley.com/release-notes/v0_9_8/

I thought that someone would say before than us… I have a mail in
the drafts waiting to release Mendeley Desktop 0.9.8.1 to announce it
here and in citeproc-js.

Also, CSL 1.0 and citeproc-js was in the wild but only web-wise. See
the Mendeley catalog, e.g.:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/citation-statistics/
(it was properly announced here)

Out of curiosity, are the different styles generated when they page loads,
or when one cliks the tabs? Seems pretty snappy, so assume the former (not
that citeproc-js isn’t fast enough or anything)?

and the link below suggests that a fork of the CSL repository has been
made
(see the comment by Robert Knight):

http://feedback.mendeley.com/forums/4941-mendeley-feedback/suggestions/1121321-american-chemical-society-fetching-is-incorrect

At the moment Mendeley Desktop gets the styles from a repository in
Mendeley Web, the idea is that this repository should be synced with
the “main repository” that every now and then we discuss here.
Personally I like that Mendeley Desktop communicates only, as far as
it’s possible, with Mendeley servers (easier to handle things like SSL
certificates, uptimes, firewalls in universities/companies, etc.)

Still wondering how we move forward on that idea we were kicking around of
the github-based repo (and get in some of the remaining features on the
editor).

BruceOn Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Carles Pina <@Carles_Pina>wrote:

Yeah, I think I’m going to have to echo Carles’s sentiments here. While
a central repository would be a great resource, I’d be inclined to have
Zotero still get most of its styles directly from our servers (even if
those are somehow synced with a central repo), since, among other
things, that’s where it gets translators from as well, and we can manage
and optimize style downloading as part of the same process, including
making decisions about when to push particular versions. This doesn’t
mean that there couldn’t be a separate updating mechanism for styles
downloaded from other URLs (e.g., central repo or publisher site), but
at this point, at least, I don’t think that would be the default behavior.

I’m not sure how best to reconcile support for separate projects,
though. For example, CSL developers in the Zotero community have made
various implementation decisions based on discussions in the Zotero
forums, and they can explain those decisions to users seeking support
there and make adjustments in response to feedback. I don’t know how
that will work when multiple projects are using the same master styles.
(Of course, technically this is already the case, but I don’t know
whether Mendeley developers make independent alterations to the Zotero
styles or simply pull new versions from the Zotero repository as they’re
made available—I don’t think any changes have been committed back more
than once or twice, so this hasn’t come up on our end.)

So I’d defer to Rintze and other style developers for guidance here.
There might be some good parallels in other software projects, but none
spring immediately to mind.

  • Dan

Hello,On 11 October 2010 22:12, Bruce D’Arcus <@Bruce_D_Arcus1> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Carles Pina <@Carles_Pina> > wrote:

Hello,

On 11 October 2010 17:54, Rintze Zelle <@Rintze_Zelle> wrote:

FYI: I haven’t run the software yet, but apparently the latest stable
release of Mendeley now also supports CSL 1.0:

http://www.mendeley.com/release-notes/v0_9_8/

I thought that someone would say before than us… I have a mail in
the drafts waiting to release Mendeley Desktop 0.9.8.1 to announce it
here and in citeproc-js.

Also, CSL 1.0 and citeproc-js was in the wild but only web-wise. See
the Mendeley catalog, e.g.:
http://www.mendeley.com/research/citation-statistics/
(it was properly announced here)

Out of curiosity, are the different styles generated when they page loads,
or when one cliks the tabs? Seems pretty snappy, so assume the former (not
that citeproc-js isn’t fast enough or anything)?

I haven’t done the web part, but I’ve just asked and they are all done
when the page loads.

Yeah, I think I’m going to have to echo Carles’s sentiments here. While a
central repository would be a great resource, I’d be inclined to have Zotero
still get most of its styles directly from our servers (even if those are
somehow synced with a central repo), since, among other things, that’s where
it gets translators from as well, and we can manage and optimize style
downloading as part of the same process, including making decisions about
when to push particular versions. This doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be a
separate updating mechanism for styles downloaded from other URLs (e.g.,
central repo or publisher site), but at this point, at least, I don’t think
that would be the default behavior.

I don’t have an opinion on this since I don’t understand the technical
point that Carles was making. The idea of basing this on a DVCS could
make my concerns about this impulse ease a fair bit.

I’m not sure how best to reconcile support for separate projects, though.
For example, CSL developers in the Zotero community have made various
implementation decisions based on discussions in the Zotero forums, and they
can explain those decisions to users seeking support there and make
adjustments in response to feedback. I don’t know how that will work when
multiple projects are using the same master styles. (Of course, technically
this is already the case, but I don’t know whether Mendeley developers make
independent alterations to the Zotero styles or simply pull new versions
from the Zotero repository as they’re made available—I don’t think any
changes have been committed back more than once or twice, so this hasn’t
come up on our end.)

So I’d defer to Rintze and other style developers for guidance here. There
might be some good parallels in other software projects, but none spring
immediately to mind.

In a year, if someone posts a “I have a problem with X style” question
on the Zotero or Mendeley forums, I’d like to point them to
http://citationstyles.org/styles/x, where there would be a comment
area. Discussions which also deal with client issues would remain
where they were.

Bruce

Speaking from the Mendeley side, we will also want to host a local
copy of any repository styles, so that we can ensure uptime for our
users, but we are happy to have these as a mirror of a community
repository.

We don’t tend to make adjustments to the CSL styles once we are using them.

  • Ian

but we are happy to have these as a mirror of a community repository.

Or even just a cache. CSL styles are identified by a URL so if Zotero
/ Mendeley servers are asked to fetch
a style they don’t have they always know where to get it from.

Regards,
Rob.

I think it might be quite a challenge to keep the repository centralized. In
the Zotero project, CSL styles have been mostly created and edited by a
relatively small group of people. The learning curve (knowing how to
manually edit XML, learning CSL, using SVN), combined with either the need
for a registered SVN account, or peer-review if a style developer commits a
style for someone else, has ensured most commits to the Zotero Style
Repository are of a high quality.

If Mendeley’s CSL editor comes into use, I think two things might complicate
things. First, the editor might output styles that are relatively difficult
to edit further by hand (I haven’t studied the styles generated by the tool,
but I expect this to be the case as the editor is mostly item type-based).
Secondly, there might be too many edits (which will most probably include
quite a few wrong ones) to easily review. As a result, I’m not sure it’s
desirable to automatically push styles edited with Mendeley’s CSL editor
upstream to the mainstream repository (this would be less of an issue for
newly created styles).

Rintze

I think you’re absolutely right about potential problems, but that
your conclusion is wrong. We should consider it a requirement of the
editor that it can serve as the front-end for a central repository
such that nobody ever has to hand-edit the styles. E.g. it should
create “good” styles, and it should be easy to make corrections to
them in the interface.

Of necessity, this will mean further work on the editor, but I really
don’t see the point of deploying it at all if it can’t do what I’m
suggesting.

Bruce

Right. I guess I’ve become slightly biased towards manual editing of CSL
styles over the years. I’ll try to test/review the CSL editor a bit more
thoroughly one of these days to see how it’s coming along.

Rintze

So I just want to underline this point …

Yeah, I think I’m going to have to echo Carles’s sentiments here. While a
central repository would be a great resource, I’d be inclined to have Zotero
still get most of its styles directly from our servers (even if those are
somehow synced with a central repo), since, among other things, that’s where
it gets translators from as well, and we can manage and optimize style
downloading as part of the same process, including making decisions about
when to push particular versions. This doesn’t mean that there couldn’t be a
separate updating mechanism for styles downloaded from other URLs (e.g.,
central repo or publisher site), but at this point, at least, I don’t think
that would be the default behavior.

I don’t have an opinion on this since I don’t understand the technical
point that Carles was making. The idea of basing this on a DVCS could
make my concerns about this impulse ease a fair bit.

I’m not sure how best to reconcile support for separate projects, though.
For example, CSL developers in the Zotero community have made various
implementation decisions based on discussions in the Zotero forums, and they
can explain those decisions to users seeking support there and make
adjustments in response to feedback. I don’t know how that will work when
multiple projects are using the same master styles. (Of course, technically
this is already the case, but I don’t know whether Mendeley developers make
independent alterations to the Zotero styles or simply pull new versions
from the Zotero repository as they’re made available—I don’t think any
changes have been committed back more than once or twice, so this hasn’t
come up on our end.)

So I’d defer to Rintze and other style developers for guidance here. There
might be some good parallels in other software projects, but none spring
immediately to mind.

In a year, if someone posts a “I have a problem with X style” question
on the Zotero or Mendeley forums, I’d like to point them to
http://citationstyles.org/styles/x, where there would be a comment
area. Discussions which also deal with client issues would remain
where they were.

If you want to understand the insanity of the current situation, read
through all the Zotero forum posts on citation style bugs.

Then go here:

http://feedback.mendeley.com/pages/4941-mendeley-feedback/suggestions/80941-manually-edit-citation-styles-in-mendeley-desktop

Almost total disconnect, and potential for opening up a massive
duplication of effort for different communities of CSL users,
developers, and support people. Let’s stop the insanity please.

Bruce