# Wishlist for the style schema

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [November 19, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366 "2007-11-19T14:11:17Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 8\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Julian\_Onions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Julian\_Onions](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Julian_Onions)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 2:11pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/1 "2007-11-19T14:11:17Z")

</div>

OK, this is a wishlist, but its based on having tried to set up a number of  
styles (~ 30).

- An additional author called series-editor, where it is used for more  
complex things where there is an overall series editor - might be an overall  
editor of an encyclopaedia or a multi-volume book covering a history or  
similar.
- A type of biblical, or something else faintly religious. I can’t  
shoe horn biblical references in alongside other types currently. They’re  
just out on their own as a style!
- A type based on book or chapter for a course text. Certainly in my  
world there are a lot of these, in which say, book 3, is written by an  
author, but is part of a multi-volume set which has a title. I think there  
are enough constructs to put something like this together if I had a type to  
allow the ordering to be different to a regular book or chapter. E.g.,

The Open University (1984) T281 \*Basic physical science for  
technology,\*Unit 9, ‘Thermochemistry’, Milton Keynes, The Open  
University.

which breaks down as

author=The Open University date=(1984) collection-title=T281  
_series-title=Basic  
physical science for technology,_ title=Unit 9, ‘Thermochemistry’,  
location=Milton Keynes, publisher=The Open University.

and needs to be different to a chapter as in

Mason, R. (1994) ‘The educational value of ISDN’, in Mason, R. and Bacsich,  
P. (eds.), _ISDN: applications in education and training_, Exeter, Short Run  
Press

Both examples taken from the Open University Harvard referencing guidelines.

This would also allow me to do the in-text citations too I think, in the way  
some of the courses require which I’ve droned on about before. Perhaps call  
it book-series or something? There’s probably a library term for it. It goes  
together somewhat with the first point in some styles.

- quotes=single/double/none as an option instead of quotes=true/false  
to wrap things in `' as well as "" - there may be other quotation styles (french quotes?). I've tried prefix="`" but it doesn’t look at all nice in  
word.
- Some attributes to chapter, volume and volume no. to allow  
formatting. I think what is required is probably form=numeric/ordinal/roman  
to allow “vol. 3”, “vol III” “3rd vol”. Also a label like in pages that can  
be vol, volume, chap, chapter etc.
- Something similar for edition (form and label). I think it best to  
store edition as a number and then format it so we can have things like 3rd  
edition, ed. 3, edition 3, 3(superscript)rd ed ideally driven by the style  
rather than the text input. The numeric formatting should probably be  
factored out so it can be applied to dates as well.

Well that’s it for now!

Julian.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/2 "2007-11-19T17:00:06Z")

</div>

Simon, see below …

Julian Onions wrote:

> OK, this is a wishlist, but its based on having tried to set up a number  
> of styles (~ 30).
> 
> ```
> * An additional author called series-editor, where it is used for
> more complex things where there is an overall series editor -
> might be an overall editor of an encyclopaedia or a multi-volume
> book covering a history or similar.
> 
> ```

Done.

> ```
> * A type of biblical, or something else faintly religious. I can't
> shoe horn biblical references in alongside other types currently.
> They're just out on their own as a style!
> 
> ```

I’m not convinced there isn’t a generic solution for this issue, since  
it seems to intersect with other use cases. For example, John brought up  
some of these.

> ```
> * A type based on book or chapter for a course text. Certainly in my
> world there are a lot of these, in which say, book 3, is written
> by an author, but is part of a multi-volume set which has a title.
> I think there are enough constructs to put something like this
> together if I had a type to allow the ordering to be different to
> a regular book or chapter. E.g.,
> 
> ```

I’m not seeing why this is an issue specific to courses, nor what the  
problem is?

> The Open University (1984) T281 /Basic physical science for technology,/  
> Unit 9, ‘Thermochemistry’, Milton Keynes, The Open University.
> 
> which breaks down as
> 
> author=The Open University date=(1984) collection-title=T281  
> /series-title=Basic physical science for technology,/ title=Unit 9,  
> ‘Thermochemistry’, location=Milton Keynes, publisher=The Open University.
> 
> and needs to be different to a chapter as in
> 
> Mason, R. (1994) ‘The educational value of ISDN’, in Mason, R. and  
> Bacsich, P. (eds.), /ISDN: applications in education and training/,  
> Exeter, Short Run Press
> 
> Both examples taken from the Open University Harvard referencing guidelines.
> 
> This would also allow me to do the in-text citations too I think, in the  
> way some of the courses require which I’ve droned on about before.

Right, but as I said, I think there needs to be am more generic solution  
for this, and perhaps for biblical texts.

> Perhaps call it book-series or something? There’s probably a library  
> term for it. It goes together somewhat with the first point in some styles.
> 
> ```
> * quotes=single/double/none as an option instead of
> quotes=true/false to wrap things in ` ' as well as "" - there may
> be other quotation styles (french quotes?). I've tried prefix="`"
> but it doesn't look at all nice in word.
> 
> ```

Simon?

> ```
> * Some attributes to chapter, volume and volume no. to allow
> formatting. I think what is required is probably
> form=numeric/ordinal/roman to allow "vol. 3", "vol III" "3rd vol".
> Also a label like in pages that can be vol, volume, chap, chapter
> etc.
> 
> ```

Simon?

> ```
> * Something similar for edition (form and label). I think it best to
> store edition as a number and then format it so we can have things
> like 3rd edition, ed. 3, edition 3, 3(superscript)rd ed ideally
> driven by the style rather than the text input. The numeric
> formatting should probably be factored out so it can be applied to
> dates as well.
> 
> ```

Simon?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 5:47pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/3 "2007-11-19T17:47:31Z")

</div>

> > - A type of biblical, or something else faintly religious. I can’t  
> > shoe horn biblical references in alongside other types currently.  
> > They’re just out on their own as a style!
> 
> I’m not convinced there isn’t a generic solution for this issue, since  
> it seems to intersect with other use cases. For example, John brought up  
> some of these.

The cases are those described in Chicago 15, Special Types of References,  
pp. 715-23, especially paragraphs 17.246-62.

I think a member of the class is a standard work in which

- for citation purposes publication details are unimportant (e.g., it does  
not matter whose printing of the King James Bible or Plato’s Republic or  
Shakespeare’s Hamlet you are using)
- locations are logical rather than physical.

Instances of the class include:

- Scriptural works, including the Bible and Qur’an (Gen. 25:19-36:43)
- Classical Greek and Latin literature (Aristotle, Prior Analytics,  
2.23.68b43)
- Canonical literature (Milton, Paradise Lost, bk. 1, lines 83-86)
- More recent works, now public domain and widely reprinted, for which  
logical rather than physical locators are more useful (Marx, Capital, bk. 1,  
ch. 7, ¶1)

Sometimes the work is left out of the bibliography, though it might be  
included if some ancillary publication-specific info, such as translator, is  
useful.

Sometimes a logical locator is necessary but a physical one added (Mill,  
System of Logic, 4.6.8, p. 345). An initial note will explain that the page  
numbers are to the editions listed in the bibliography.

Unfortunately, different journals concatenate locators differently. One  
journal may prefer Prior Analytics B 23 68b47. Another may want Prior  
Analytics 2.23.68b47.

I suspect as more works go digital and printed manifestations become less  
important, this class will grow. Maybe these works should be seen as a  
subclass of an existing digital class, a class already utilizing logical,  
rather than physical, locators. (My students are already struggling with how  
to cite, say, a passage in Darwin’s Origin of Species when they have read it  
only on-line.)

– John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/4 "2007-11-19T18:06:43Z")

</div>

> > - quotes=single/double/none as an option instead of  
> > quotes=true/false to wrap things in ` ' as well as "" - there may be other quotation styles (french quotes?). I've tried prefix="`"  
> > but it doesn’t look at all nice in word.

Can’t hurt to have it, and isn’t any harder to implement than simple  
quotes=“true”.

> > - Some attributes to chapter, volume and volume no. to allow  
> > formatting. I think what is required is probably  
> > form=numeric/ordinal/roman to allow “vol. 3”, “vol III” “3rd  
> > vol”.  
> > Also a label like in pages that can be vol, volume, chap,  
> > chapter  
> > etc.

Should be possible, but how do we handle ordinal numbering in the  
locales? Or shall we leave this up to the interpreter?

> > - Something similar for edition (form and label). I think it  
> > best to  
> > store edition as a number and then format it so we can have  
> > things  
> > like 3rd edition, ed. 3, edition 3, 3(superscript)rd ed ideally  
> > driven by the style rather than the text input. The numeric  
> > formatting should probably be factored out so it can be  
> > applied to  
> > dates as well.

Generally, this sounds like a good idea. Again, we have a bit of a  
problem, because at least in Zotero, we’ll have to translate things  
like “third” into 3, which is easy to do for one locale but harder to  
do for all locales. Then again, simply supporting 1-10 is probably  
good enough. Are there any styles that require “third” versus “3rd”?

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/5 "2007-11-19T18:13:02Z")

</div>

> > > - quotes=single/double/none as an option instead of  
> > > quotes=true/false to wrap things in ` ' as well as "" - there may be other quotation styles (french quotes?). I've tried prefix="`"  
> > > but it doesn’t look at all nice in word.
> 
> Can’t hurt to have it, and isn’t any harder to implement than simple  
> quotes=“true”.

Would “single” or “double” always mean curly quotes, or should “curly/not  
curly” be an option?

– John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/6 "2007-11-19T18:14:06Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> > > > - quotes=single/double/none as an option instead of  
> > > > quotes=true/false to wrap things in ` ' as well as "" - there may be other quotation styles (french quotes?). I've tried prefix="`"  
> > > > but it doesn’t look at all nice in word.  
> > > > Can’t hurt to have it, and isn’t any harder to implement than simple  
> > > > quotes=“true”.
> 
> Would “single” or “double” always mean curly quotes, or should “curly/not  
> curly” be an option?

Why would one want “not curly”? My impulse is to vote no for this, but  
am interested in your thinking.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Julian\_Onions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Julian\_Onions](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Julian_Onions)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/7 "2007-11-19T20:08:27Z")

</div>

> > > - Some attributes to chapter, volume and volume no. to allow  
> > > formatting. I think what is required is probably  
> > > form=numeric/ordinal/roman to allow “vol. 3”, “vol III” “3rd  
> > > vol”.  
> > > Also a label like in pages that can be vol, volume, chap,  
> > > chapter  
> > > etc.
> 
> Should be possible, but how do we handle ordinal numbering in the  
> locales? Or shall we leave this up to the interpreter?

Its already handled for dates, so I imagine the same logic should apply.

> > - Something similar for edition (form and label). I think it
> > 
> > > best to  
> > > store edition as a number and then format it so we can have  
> > > things  
> > > like 3rd edition, ed. 3, edition 3, 3(superscript)rd ed ideally  
> > > driven by the style rather than the text input. The numeric  
> > > formatting should probably be factored out so it can be  
> > > applied to  
> > > dates as well.
> 
> Generally, this sounds like a good idea. Again, we have a bit of a  
> problem, because at least in Zotero, we’ll have to translate things  
> like “third” into 3, which is easy to do for one locale but harder to  
> do for all locales. Then again, simply supporting 1-10 is probably  
> good enough. Are there any styles that require “third” versus “3rd”?

I don’t think I’ve seen any yet, but its probably only a matter of time!

Julian.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [November 19, 2007, 8:59pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/wishlist-for-the-style-schema/366/8 "2007-11-19T20:59:43Z")

</div>

> > > - Some attributes to chapter, volume and volume no. to allow  
> > > formatting. I think what is required is probably  
> > > form=numeric/ordinal/roman to allow “vol. 3”, “vol III” “3rd  
> > > vol”.  
> > > Also a label like in pages that can be vol, volume, chap,  
> > > chapter  
> > > etc.
> 
> Should be possible, but how do we handle ordinal numbering in the  
> locales? Or shall we leave this up to the interpreter?
> 
> Its already handled for dates, so I imagine the same logic should  
> apply.

Only in English. I don’t think Zotero can handle it properly in other  
languages, although other languages often have different assumptions  
when it comes to the use of ordinal numbers, so I don’t know if it  
matters. I also don’t know whether it’s something we want to worry  
about in locales.xml or something that we should consider  
implementation-specific.

> > > - Something similar for edition (form and label). I think it  
> > > best to  
> > > store edition as a number and then format it so we can have  
> > > things  
> > > like 3rd edition, ed. 3, edition 3, 3(superscript)rd ed  
> > > ideally  
> > > driven by the style rather than the text input. The numeric  
> > > formatting should probably be factored out so it can be  
> > > applied to  
> > > dates as well.
> 
> Generally, this sounds like a good idea. Again, we have a bit of a  
> problem, because at least in Zotero, we’ll have to translate things  
> like “third” into 3, which is easy to do for one locale but harder to  
> do for all locales. Then again, simply supporting 1-10 is probably  
> good enough. Are there any styles that require “third” versus “3rd”?
> 
> I don’t think I’ve seen any yet, but its probably only a matter of  
> time!

Again, do we want to put first/second/third/etc. into locales.xml? Or  
shall we leave this up to the implementation?

Simon