# Types

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [August 14, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310 "2007-08-14T18:40:40Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/1 "2007-08-14T18:40:40Z")

</div>

John’s remarks on type mapping have prompted me to point out that CSL  
is missing types for blog entries (which are apparently in the  
Chicago Manual of Style now), dictionary entries, and encyclopedia  
entries. See [https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/699](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/699). I think that  
before Bruce disputed whether dictionary and encyclopedia entries  
were truly necessary, but it seems like in APA they’re different from  
the fallback types (although not from each other). I can simply add  
these to the schema if there are no objections.

Simon

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/2 "2007-08-14T19:40:53Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> John’s remarks on type mapping have prompted me to point out that CSL  
> is missing types for blog entries (which are apparently in the  
> Chicago Manual of Style now), dictionary entries, and encyclopedia  
> entries. See [https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/699](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/699). I think that  
> before Bruce disputed whether dictionary and encyclopedia entries  
> were truly necessary, but it seems like in APA they’re different from  
> the fallback types (although not from each other). I can simply add  
> these to the schema if there are no objections.

Actually, the link on that ticket isn’t very helpful. The section on  
“weblog entry” doesn’t in fact include a weblog entry proper. It  
includes the weblog per se, and a comment on an entry.

I would presume a weblog entry would be formatted like an article, and  
not need any type-specific logic.

The problem I have with tying formatting (or even data model)  
fundamentally to types is that they’re really fragile and chaotic  
concepts. Moreover, they tend to give the style author a false sense of  
security; as if the only good style is one where you can clearly  
identify patterns for any type you might use.

I’d say quite the contrary, a well-written style will properly format  
sources for which it does not have a specific template for the type.  
_That_ is the measure of a good style, and it will ensure it works more  
reliably for different users.

But I guess we need to make a decision, and establish a policy. What the  
hell is a type, and when do we add it? What’s the convention for minting  
them? Is it just the old Zotero approach of adding them ad hoc as  
requested? Or can we find a better way?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/3 "2007-08-14T20:05:20Z")

</div>

Followup thought:

To ease the burden on types further, maybe we need to be able do stuff  
like or ?

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Dan\_Stillman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dan\_Stillman](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Dan_Stillman)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/4 "2007-08-14T20:25:16Z")

</div>

I know the question here is primarily about the schema, but I would just  
say that Zotero’s rationale for adding a type is probably different from  
CSL’s, and probably will be even once a new ontology is in place. We  
have to support (and attract) end users, and there’s a degree to which  
even types that are identical to existing types are necessary in order  
to meet user expectations and avoid repeated support requests. That  
doesn’t mean we should happily comply with every type add request from  
users–most of the time, we will be able to say, “Just use ‘document’ or  
’journalArticle’ or ‘bookSection’”–but there are some, like blog  
entries, that really need to be in there to comfort users, even if  
they’re no more than pointers to fallback types in CSL.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/5 "2007-08-14T20:38:13Z")

</div>

Dan Stillman wrote:

> I know the question here is primarily about the schema, but I would just  
> say that Zotero’s rationale for adding a type is probably different from  
> CSL’s, and probably will be even once a new ontology is in place. We  
> have to support (and attract) end users, and there’s a degree to which  
> even types that are identical to existing types are necessary in order  
> to meet user expectations and avoid repeated support requests. That  
> doesn’t mean we should happily comply with every type add request from  
> users–most of the time, we will be able to say, “Just use ‘document’ or  
> ‘journalArticle’ or ‘bookSection’”–but there are some, like blog  
> entries, that really need to be in there to comfort users, even if  
> they’re no more than pointers to fallback types in CSL.

I recognize – and it’s good to keep in mind – that the function of a  
type in an internal data model or in a formatting system might be  
different than in a GUI.

But I still go back to the larger point: what _is_ a type for Zotero, or  
CSL? What is the logic by which you add them? Why is one type (blog  
entry) necessary, but another (memo, press release, lab notes, binary  
code, postcard) not?

If it’s just user-comfort, then what happens when you have three users,  
each of whom are comfortable with different ways of “typing” their  
records? Or even worse, what happens where you have three styles, where  
each of them use different logics to define types?

I think the example of the “book” type is pretty instructive. It’s quite  
common for users to ask on the Zotero forums “where’s the edited book”  
type or some variant of that question. Once you explain to them how  
contributors work, invariably you witness an “ah ha” moment in which it  
all becomes crystal clear. Now a single type can cover what in some  
models would require four of them: Book, EditedBook, OnlineBook, etc.  
And the logic that distinguishes them is in fact the attributes of the  
source, rather than the type.

I say this while having to admit we’re likely adding an EditedBook class  
to the RDF ontology (though the reasons are different) 🙂

I’m not saying any of this is easy, BTW; it’s a PITA!

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 9:55pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/6 "2007-08-14T21:55:34Z")

</div>

Scenario:

A community of medieval historians (or maybe just a lone scholar writing a  
dissertation) develops a consistent way to cite medieval chants, using  
various cataloguing paradigms developed over the years. It doesn’t use  
people or dates at all, but four identifying fields: “Collection”, “Series”,  
“Incipit”, “Line”.

They map Collection to container-title, Series to collection-title, Incipit  
to title, and Line to locator (or comparable fields in the bib tool they are  
using). They add a type to the Chicago style file and define the type’s  
bibliographic and footnote formats.

With EndNote, they post and pass around the style file, and tell people what  
to enter for the mappings in the Reference Types window. (Actually, I think  
the mappings can be in a distributable file in EndNote now). The style file  
gets dropped into a directory and without waiting for an EndNote software  
release, they are (or he is) up and running.

What is the scenario with Zotero and CSL?

John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 10:12pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/7 "2007-08-14T22:12:18Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> Scenario:
> 
> A community of medieval historians (or maybe just a lone scholar writing a  
> dissertation) develops a consistent way to cite medieval chants, using  
> various cataloguing paradigms developed over the years. It doesn’t use  
> people or dates at all, but four identifying fields: “Collection”, “Series”,  
> “Incipit”, “Line”.
> 
> They map Collection to container-title, Series to collection-title, Incipit  
> to title, and Line to locator (or comparable fields in the bib tool they are  
> using). They add a type to the Chicago style file and define the type’s  
> bibliographic and footnote formats.
> 
> With EndNote, they post and pass around the style file, and tell people what  
> to enter for the mappings in the Reference Types window. (Actually, I think  
> the mappings can be in a distributable file in EndNote now). The style file  
> gets dropped into a directory and without waiting for an EndNote software  
> release, they are (or he is) up and running.
> 
> What is the scenario with Zotero and CSL?

But this is somewhat apples and oranges. Endnotes style file are  
application-specific. Not so with CSL.

I think the trick in this circumstance is how Zotero handles the data.  
It needs to be able to know how to map the properties, both to its own  
internal model, and in turn to CSL’s. E.g. I’m really sure this is our  
problem, is it?

As I was saying earlier, I except a good style to work regardless of  
types and specific properties.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/8 "2007-08-14T22:22:04Z")

</div>

> But this is somewhat apples and oranges. Endnotes style file are  
> application-specific. Not so with CSL.

I thought the idea was that CSL would be application non-specific, that Zotero and Open Office and a new add-in for Word and some new word processor could all use CSL and that users could write new CSLs they would load-and-go across multiple applications.

No?

John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/9 "2007-08-14T22:26:11Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> > But this is somewhat apples and oranges. Endnotes style file are  
> > application-specific. Not so with CSL.
> 
> I thought the idea was that CSL would be application non-specific,  
> that Zotero and Open Office and a new add-in for Word and some new  
> word processor could all use CSL and that users could write new CSLs  
> they would load-and-go across multiple applications.
> 
> No?

Yes; that’s my point. CSL basically provides a stable (I hope!) target  
model that different applications can map to. It’s up to the  
implementations to understand how to do that mapping (well and us to  
make that model clear).

Admittedly, this depends on somewhat smarter data formats than ones  
where users are forced to use completely opaque “user” tags.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 10:45pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/10 "2007-08-14T22:45:37Z")

</div>

> > I thought the idea was that CSL would be application non-specific,  
> > that Zotero and Open Office and a new add-in for Word and some new  
> > word processor could all use CSL and that users could write new CSLs  
> > they would load-and-go across multiple applications.
> > 
> > No?
> 
> Yes; that’s my point. CSL basically provides a stable (I hope!) target  
> model that different applications can map to. It’s up to the  
> implementations to understand how to do that mapping (well and us to  
> make that model clear).

But how can the application know? The only person who knows that in the new CSL, with its new medieval music type, that collection-title maps to what historians of medieval music call “Collection” and collection-type maps to “Series” and title maps to “Incipit”.

The new CSL is unusable without that mapping. How will it get from the brain of the CSL writer into the user’s computer?

Will the user read the CSL and enter the map by hand? Load a file? Wait for a new software release? Petition a committee? Hack some JavaScript?

John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/11 "2007-08-14T23:00:23Z")

</div>

In Zotero, our plan is to allow users to define their own types with  
some kind of semi-controlled vocabulary. If you create a “Medieval  
Chant” mapping, you’ll be able to upload it to [zotero.org](http://zotero.org), and other  
users will be able to search for a “Medieval Chant” type and download  
it (preferably all through the Zotero interface).

In this specific case where the CSL has type-specific formatting for  
a user-defined type, it’s not clear what we ought to do. As long as  
users can export their mappings, they can do things the EndNote way,  
and distribute the CSL and type mapping together. Whether we’d want  
to do this from a centralized repository is another question.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/12 "2007-08-14T23:15:32Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> But how can the application know? The only person who knows that in  
> the new CSL, with its new medieval music type, that collection-title  
> maps to what historians of medieval music call “Collection” and  
> collection-type maps to “Series” and title maps to “Incipit”.
> 
> The new CSL is unusable without that mapping. How will it get from  
> the brain of the CSL writer into the user’s computer?
> 
> Will the user read the CSL and enter the map by hand? Load a file?  
> Wait for a new software release? Petition a committee? Hack some  
> JavaScript?

I’m really not understanding the problem John. If the user wants to have  
their data intelligible to other tools, they have to use standard  
properties. So they don’t encode stuff like “incipit.” As you said, they  
use “title”. Likewise with the style.

The user signals their intention by the choices they make in  
representing their data. If Zotero wants to put some GUI sugar on top to  
make this easy, then fine. But I don’t see how it’s any help to be  
putting some mapping to a particular data representation in the CSL style.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/13 "2007-08-14T23:24:34Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> > Will the user read the CSL and enter the map by hand? Load a file?  
> > Wait for a new software release? Petition a committee? Hack some  
> > JavaScript?
> 
> In Zotero, our plan is to allow users to define their own types with  
> some kind of semi-controlled vocabulary. If you create a “Medieval  
> Chant” mapping, you’ll be able to upload it to [zotero.org](http://zotero.org), and other  
> users will be able to search for a “Medieval Chant” type and download  
> it (preferably all through the Zotero interface).

All I can say is you guys better figure out answers to my questions  
BEFORE you do this, or you will have chaos.

> In this specific case where the CSL has type-specific formatting for  
> a user-defined type, it’s not clear what we ought to do. As long as  
> users can export their mappings, they can do things the EndNote way,  
> and distribute the CSL and type mapping together.

Ugh, this sounds really ugly.

As I said in the response to John, the data and the style need to be  
self-contained. If you’re going to do a mapping, it should be between  
GUI and internal model. E.g. in John’s example. you do:\> On Aug 14, 2007, at 3:45 PM, John P. McCaskey wrote:

- type: “Medieval Chant”  
title: “Incipit”  
collection-title: “Collection”

… and so forth. This is on the Zotero end of things. We need a  
mechanism to create a URI for that type so that you can import and  
export it reliably in the RDF.

I don’t see a problem on the CSL (as I mentioned in reply to John). We  
just need to make sure we have a rich enough list of generic variables  
that can be mapped to.

> Whether we’d want to do this from a centralized repository is another question.

I really think it’s important to not assume centralized solutions.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/14 "2007-08-14T23:39:55Z")

</div>

> > In this specific case where the CSL has type-specific formatting for  
> > a user-defined type, it’s not clear what we ought to do. As long as  
> > users can export their mappings, they can do things the EndNote way,  
> > and distribute the CSL and type mapping together.
> 
> Ugh, this sounds really ugly.
> 
> As I said in the response to John, the data and the style need to be  
> self-contained. If you’re going to do a mapping, it should be between  
> GUI and internal model. E.g. in John’s example. you do:
> 
> - type: “Medieval Chant”  
> title: “Incipit”  
> collection-title: “Collection”
> 
> … and so forth. This is on the Zotero end of things. We need a  
> mechanism to create a URI for that type so that you can import and  
> export it reliably in the RDF.

Yes, we do this already in the database for mapping, e.g., director  
to author, and it is our plan to use these kinds of mappings with  
custom types.

> I don’t see a problem on the CSL (as I mentioned in reply to John). We  
> just need to make sure we have a rich enough list of generic variables  
> that can be mapped to.

The problem is that sometimes mapping to existing CSL _types_ will  
not be sufficient. This is John’s point, I believe. People will want  
to be able to define a custom type with its own citation style.  
EndNote lets them do this. I think it’s important that we find some  
way to provide for this behavior.

> > Whether we’d want to do this from a centralized repository is  
> > another question.
> 
> I really think it’s important to not assume centralized solutions.

For Zotero, we can assume there will be a centralized solution,  
because we intend to build it. Besides, in this case, the  
decentralized solution (medieval historians sending zip files to each  
other) is far easier, but far more chaotic, than the centralized  
solution.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 14, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/15 "2007-08-14T23:55:38Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

…

> > I don’t see a problem on the CSL (as I mentioned in reply to John). We  
> > just need to make sure we have a rich enough list of generic variables  
> > that can be mapped to.
> 
> The problem is that sometimes mapping to existing CSL _types_ will  
> not be sufficient. This is John’s point, I believe. People will want  
> to be able to define a custom type with its own citation style.

Which goes back to my point: TYPES ARE NOT RELIABLE!!! A system that  
relies on types is a broken system.

> EndNote lets them do this. I think it’s important that we find some  
> way to provide for this behavior.

Endnote _requires_ them to do this because it has a shitty – totally  
flat – data model. And for those users, their data in essence then  
becomes their own personal data, rather than freely exchangeable. I  
know; I was once an Endnote user, and it frustrated me to no end these  
limitations.

It would be a major mistake for Zotero or CSL to go down the same path  
without really careful thought.

In any case, I think we can assume we can find a solution on extending  
the type lists. I just think it’s seriously misguided to consider this  
the most important priority ATM.

> > > Whether we’d want to do this from a centralized repository is  
> > > another question.  
> > > I really think it’s important to not assume centralized solutions.
> 
> For Zotero, we can assume there will be a centralized solution,  
> because we intend to build it. Besides, in this case, the  
> decentralized solution (medieval historians sending zip files to each  
> other) is far easier, but far more chaotic, than the centralized  
> solution.

But CSL != Zotero, and I’ve said this before, but the place I want to  
get to in a few years is where a journal site might host their own  
styles and a user might only have to click a link to activate it, in  
whatever application they happen to be using.

I believe the current design approach of CSL will work in this kind of  
distributed context. But it won’t work if we end up with 200 different  
types floating around and being regularly invented, and all styles are  
dependent on those types. There has to be a more general foundation.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 15, 2007, 12:08am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/16 "2007-08-15T00:08:08Z")

</div>

Oops. Other messages flying while I was typing. I’ll send this anyway.

It’s main question for Bruce stands: How would you use CSL to write a book on medieval music?--------------------------------

> I’m really not understanding the problem John. If the user wants to have  
> their data intelligible to other tools, they have to use standard  
> properties. So they don’t encode stuff like “incipit.” As you said, they  
> use “title”. Likewise with the style.
> 
> The user signals their intention by the choices they make in  
> representing their data. If Zotero wants to put some GUI sugar on top to  
> make this easy, then fine. But I don’t see how it’s any help to be  
> putting some mapping to a particular data representation in the CSL style.

Hmm. Let me try a different approach. Forget for now sharing CSLs.

How would you use CSL to code a style for medieval music for a book on the topic you are writing?

You’ve convinced me that you would not create three new variables, “collection”, “series”, and “incipit” (even if that’s the way you and everyone else catalogs medieval music). You would look at the canonical CSL variables and pick ones that seem to have similar functions, let’s say, container-title, collection-title, and title. OK.

Now you need a type. If you can’t make a new one without waiting for the CSL committee to bless it, you reuse “song”, since you are already using “musical score” for the non-medieval music you are citing. You code up the style, leaving off authors and dates, since medieval music identifies neither.

Now you want to enter the medieval “songs”. You cannot do it unless you remember how you mapped Collection, Series, and Incipit to container-title, collection-title and title. If you misremember, the citations will come out wrong.

The “GUI sugar” isn’t optional. It must get into the computer somehow, or you’ll need a yellow Post-It note on the screen to remind you – and be sure to get the right Post-It note for the right CSL file.

The sugar is specific to the CSL file you just created (and useless outside it). Why not put the mapping in that CSL file instead of another file (or Post-It note) that must always move around with the CSL file?

(The above scenario is normal day-in-the-life stuff for EndNote users. And EndNote’s early approach left room for all sorts of problems, even before you tried to share. I think they’ve redone this now.)

John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 15, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/17 "2007-08-15T00:30:13Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> How would you use CSL to code a style for medieval music for a book  
> on the topic you are writing?
> 
> You’ve convinced me that you would not create three new variables,  
> “collection”, “series”, and “incipit” (even if that’s the way you and  
> everyone else catalogs medieval music). You would look at the  
> canonical CSL variables and pick ones that seem to have similar  
> functions, let’s say, container-title, collection-title, and title.  
> OK.
> 
> Now you need a type.

Why do you need a type? Lay out the generic formatting. add some  
conditional choose statements for the generic book, article and chapter,  
and be done with it.

I’m not being flippant; am totally serious. One of the key principles of  
CSL is a generic model and fallback logic. Book, article and chapter are  
in fact proxies for three different abstract classes of resources: what  
I earlier called monograph, part-in-serial, and part-in-monograph. This  
has increasingly become less apparent, but it’s still central to the design.

When you define those patterns, a CSL engine is supposed to know that  
those are the generic fallback definitions. The whole point of this  
design is to decrease reliance on types, and so to simplify styles, and  
make them more reliable.

I formatted a complete published book using a style with probably five  
types in it, but whose data probably had 20. I got virtually no  
complaints from the copy editors about my citations and bibliography. So  
I know this works.

Type is NOT central to CSL formatting. You’re thinking like an Endnote  
user 🙂

> If you can’t make a new one without waiting for  
> the CSL committee to bless it, you reuse “song”, since you are  
> already using “musical score” for the non-medieval music you are  
> citing. You code up the style, leaving off authors and dates, since  
> medieval music identifies neither.

Another principle of CSL is that if data isn’t present, it doesn’t get  
printed. So you don’t per se need type-specific templates to get around  
this. Just define generic logic for dealing with no dates and authors.

> Now you want to enter the medieval “songs”. You cannot do it unless  
> you remember how you mapped Collection, Series, and Incipit to  
> container-title, collection-title and title. If you misremember, the  
> citations will come out wrong.
> 
> The “GUI sugar” isn’t optional. It must get into the computer  
> somehow, or you’ll need a yellow Post-It note on the screen to remind  
> you – and be sure to get the right Post-It note for the right CSL  
> file.

But what are you mapping to?

> The sugar is specific to the CSL file you just created (and useless  
> outside it). Why not put the mapping in that CSL file instead of  
> another file (or Post-It note) that must always move around with the  
> CSL file?
> 
> (The above scenario is normal day-in-the-life stuff for EndNote  
> users. And EndNote’s early approach left room for all sorts of  
> problems, even before you tried to share. I think they’ve redone this  
> now.)

I’m starting to see now: you want user comments or annotations? If yes,  
I’m still not convinced that’s particularly helpful, but it’s easy to  
support technically and fairly non-intrusive. So it’s certainly  
something we can discuss more.

But I think we need to first agree on some of the stuff up top before we  
get down to this level of detail.

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 15, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/18 "2007-08-15T00:48:36Z")

</div>

You aren’t answering my question. How does a medievalist get the word “Incipit” on the computer screen next to an empty text box, enter a word in the text box, and know the word he entered will get treated in a CSL-defined citation as a title would?

It sounds like you are saying a medievalist shouldn’t want to do that. He should know that “Incipit” is like “Title” and just accept “Title”. And if he shares a CSL file that correctly treats the two similarly, he should just tell his friends he wrote the CSL so “Incipit” is like “Title”. Get a Post-It Note if you can’t remember.

> Book, article and chapter are in fact proxies for three different abstract  
> classes of resources: what I earlier called monograph, part-in-serial, and  
> part-in-monograph.

(Actually, I always thought this kind of proxy thinking was one of EndNote’s big weaknesses.)

John

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [August 15, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/19 "2007-08-15T01:23:36Z")

</div>

John P. McCaskey wrote:

> You aren’t answering my question.

And you’re not answering mine: why do you insist that you need type?

> How does a medievalist get the word  
> “Incipit” on the computer screen next to an empty text box, enter a  
> word in the text box, and know the word he entered will get treated  
> in a CSL-defined citation as a title would?

I’m saying what happens in some application UI is not my problem.

> It sounds like you are saying a medievalist shouldn’t want to do  
> that. He should know that “Incipit” is like “Title” and just accept  
> “Title”. And if he shares a CSL file that correctly treats the two  
> similarly, he should just tell his friends he wrote the CSL so  
> “Incipit” is like “Title”. Get a Post-It Note if you can’t remember.

No, I’m saying it’s up to the application to handle that mapping and the  
associated UI (if there is one; there’s not currently).

I’m saying that Zotero or any other application damn well better not be  
treating “incipit” _internally_ as some unique property, any more than  
it ought to treat “newspaper title” as a unique property. That if they  
do, they better be tracking the mappings between them. Finally, that if  
they want a mapping to a GUI, they should do it as I suggested:

```
title: "Incipit"

```

… or if you prefer internationalized XML:

 Incipit 

E.g. map the label to the internal property name (“title”), which in  
turn has a pre-defined mapping to CSL (“title”). If you need to share  
the mapping, host the config file at a URI and allow people to load them.

Note: this is exactly how MS configures their forms BTW. Their binding  
is just an XPath expression to write out the XML.

> > Book, article and chapter are in fact proxies for three different  
> > abstract classes of resources: what I earlier called monograph,  
> > part-in-serial, and part-in-monograph.
> 
> (Actually, I always thought this kind of proxy thinking was one of  
> EndNote’s big weaknesses.)

It’s a little frustrating to hear you say this John. I’ve spent a few  
years of my life working on this, all the while working with real data  
and real manuscripts. You might give me the benefit of the doubt (as you  
often do) that I might know what I’m doing here. If we just rely on type  
everywhere, I’m telling you: things become more complicated, not less.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![John\_P\_McCaskey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@John\_P\_McCaskey](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/John_P_McCaskey)\
**Post date:** [August 15, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/types/310/20 "2007-08-15T02:50:14Z")

</div>

> You might give me the benefit of the doubt (as you often do) that I  
> might know what I’m doing here.

No insult intended. You’ve definitely earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt on this, especially by a latecomer like me. My apologies.

You’ve answered my question: Have two files. One is the CSL. The other associates a label (or multiple labels for multiple languages) with each variable-type pair in the CSL file. Got it.

I think if I were writing an application to format using CSL (which I’m toying with), I’d figure out how to get Zotero to export its mappings into that mapping file and just use whatever labels they picked. That would make for a consistent UI cross-platform.

> why do you insist that you need type?

I don’t really. I’m just trying to figure out how, as an end-user working with a small group of others, we’d create a specialized citation style we need, enter the data with minimum error even if we are on different platforms, and have the bibliography come out right. I’m praying this is possible so that my chums and I don’t have to use that god-awful EndNote.

John

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