# Questions from localizer

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [February 6, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947 "2011-02-06T12:24:15Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 9\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Avram\_Lyon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Avram\_Lyon](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Avram_Lyon)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/1 "2011-02-06T12:24:15Z")

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Dear CSL/XBiblio folks,

Together with Alexei (cc’ed here), we’re working on improving the CSL  
1.0 locale for ru-RU, and we’re unclear about some terms. Advice on  
how they should be interpreted is appreciated.

1. When is the term “reference” used? We’re not sure what it’s supposed to mean.
2. When is the term “cited” used?
3. Has there been progress on the gender and CSL terms?

Our updated locale is at  
[https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/blob/master/locales-ru-RU.xml](https://github.com/ajlyon/zotero-bits/blob/master/locales-ru-RU.xml)

Regards,

Avram

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/2 "2011-02-06T13:33:48Z")

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> 1. When is the term “reference” used? We’re not sure what it’s supposed to  
> mean.

See  
[http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html)(“references”  
was later renamed to “reference”). Maybe Frank could provide a  
formatted example.

> 1. When is the term “cited” used?

It’s used in quite a few styles as a prefix to the “accessed” date (see e.g.  
brain.csl), so you get something like “[cited 31-01-2008]”.

> 1. Has there been progress on the gender and CSL terms?

[https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals)  
I think we can support most use cases with the solution proposed, so IMHO  
it’s ready to go into the schema for CSL 1.0.1.

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/3 "2011-02-06T13:44:29Z")

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> > 1. When is the term “reference” used? We’re not sure what it’s supposed to  
> > mean.
> 
> See  
> [http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html)  
> (“references” was later renamed to “reference”). Maybe Frank could provide a  
> formatted example.

I asked for this to be put in to support a specialized used case in  
which references are cited explicitly in test. There’s an attempt to  
explain the style requirement, and how a dynamic editing system might  
cope with it, here:

[http://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/citeproc-doc.html#processor-control](http://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/citeproc-doc.html#processor-control)

> > 1. When is the term “cited” used?
> 
> It’s used in quite a few styles as a prefix to the “accessed” date (see e.g.  
> brain.csl), so you get something like “[cited 31-01-2008]”.
> 
> > 1. Has there been progress on the gender and CSL terms?
> 
> [https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals)  
> I think we can support most use cases with the solution proposed, so IMHO  
> it’s ready to go into the schema for CSL 1.0.1.

The proposal has been implemented in cteproc-js, so if there are no  
major changes to the syntax, it can go into service immediately when  
approved.

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/4 "2011-02-06T13:45:59Z")

</div>

I should also mention that the behavior described there is available  
in Pandoc with Andrea Rossato’s citeproc-hs processor.

Frank

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**Author:** ![Avram\_Lyon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e4f/32.png) [@Avram\_Lyon](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Avram_Lyon)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/5 "2011-02-06T14:07:27Z")

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Thanks for the explanations-- more questions below.

> > > 1. When is the term “reference” used? We’re not sure what it’s supposed to  
> > > See  
> > > [http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html)  
> > > (“references” was later renamed to “reference”). Maybe Frank could provide a  
> > > formatted example.
> 
> I asked for this to be put in to support a specialized used case in  
> which references are cited explicitly in test. There’s an attempt to  
> explain the style requirement, and how a dynamic editing system might  
> cope with it, here:
> 
> [gsl-nagoya-u.net&nbsp;-&nbsp;This website is for sale!&nbsp;-&nbsp;gsl nagoya u Resources and Information.](http://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/citeproc-doc.html#processor-control)

I think I have to concur with Bruce from the xbiblio thread-- this is  
awfully confusing! But if I understand correctly, the term would be  
used as a verb in something like (Jones 2000, references Anderson  
2010) ?

I don’t see the mention of this in the citeproc-js manual, but maybe I  
just don’t know what I’m looking for.

> > > 1. When is the term “cited” used?
> > 
> > It’s used in quite a few styles as a prefix to the “accessed” date (see e.g.  
> > brain.csl), so you get something like “[cited 31-01-2008]”.

How does this differ from the term “accessed”?

> > > 1. Has there been progress on the gender and CSL terms?
> > 
> > [https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals)  
> > I think we can support most use cases with the solution proposed, so IMHO  
> > it’s ready to go into the schema for CSL 1.0.1.
> 
> The proposal has been implemented in cteproc-js, so if there are no  
> major changes to the syntax, it can go into service immediately when  
> approved.

Great. I suppose this will have to be discussed separately, but  
Russian will need three genders.

Russian (and several other Slavic) plurals are also not simply binary  
and would require more complex behavior. Not sure if this is in the  
scope of 1.0.1 or on the roadmap for CSL at all, but it shouldn’t be  
forgotten.

Avram2011/2/6 Frank Bennett \<@Frank\_Bennett\>:

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/6 "2011-02-06T15:03:20Z")

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> > > > 1. When is the term “cited” used?
> > > 
> > > It’s used in quite a few styles as a prefix to the “accessed” date (see  
> > > e.g.  
> > > brain.csl), so you get something like “[cited 31-01-2008]”.
> 
> How does this differ from the term “accessed”?

Well, one could argue that “cited” and “accessed” have a slightly different  
meaning, even though they’re used in the same context. Having a separate  
term has the benefit of having translations of both.

> > > > 1. Has there been progress on the gender and CSL terms?
> 
> [https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/issue/29/support-gender-specific-ordinals)
> 
> > > I think we can support most use cases with the solution proposed, so  
> > > IMHO  
> > > it’s ready to go into the schema for CSL 1.0.1.
> > 
> > The proposal has been implemented in cteproc-js, so if there are no  
> > major changes to the syntax, it can go into service immediately when  
> > approved.
> 
> Great. I suppose this will have to be discussed separately, but  
> Russian will need three genders.
> 
> Russian (and several other Slavic) plurals are also not simply binary  
> and would require more complex behavior. Not sure if this is in the  
> scope of 1.0.1 or on the roadmap for CSL at all, but it shouldn’t be  
> forgotten.

Could you discuss these requirements in this thread?:  
[http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Pluralization-of-ordinary-item-field-terms-td5727124.html#a5758509](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Pluralization-of-ordinary-item-field-terms-td5727124.html#a5758509)  
We might be able to extend the current proposal.

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/7 "2011-02-06T15:35:53Z")

</div>

> > 1. When is the term “reference” used? We’re not sure what it’s supposed to  
> > mean.
> 
> See  
> [http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/Terms-reference-item-td3606425.html)  
> (“references” was later renamed to “reference”). Maybe Frank could provide a  
> formatted example.

Am not sure, but I think this started from the beginning, and allowed,  
for example, the heading for the bibliography to formatted by the  
processor (“References” vs “Bibliography”).

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/8 "2011-02-06T19:40:31Z")

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But this isn’t possible in current CSL, right? (as the cs:layout element  
only extends to individual bibliographic entries)

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/questions-from-localizer/947/9 "2011-02-06T19:45:38Z")

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Well:

a) am not entirely sure I have this right

b) it’s conceivable we may add it back later

c) there’s no harm in having terms even if we don’t use them

So I probably wouldn’t want to remove it.

Bruce