# is-plural attribute on conditional

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [January 3, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398 "2008-01-03T08:06:30Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 8:06am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/1 "2008-01-03T08:06:30Z")

</div>

Is this worth adding? It’s required for my EndNote to CSL style  
converter to work properly, since EndNote doesn’t use localized terms,  
but otherwise I don’t know what utility it would have. If the answer  
is no, the converter can just produce slightly invalid CSL.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 1:18pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/2 "2008-01-03T13:18:43Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> Is this worth adding? It’s required for my EndNote to CSL style  
> converter to work properly, since EndNote doesn’t use localized terms,  
> but otherwise I don’t know what utility it would have. If the answer  
> is no, the converter can just produce slightly invalid CSL.

“Slightly invalid”? From the schema perspective, it’s either valid, or  
it’s not.

Can you clarify, and also give us an example of how such an addition  
would impact the markup in this case?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/3 "2008-01-03T21:30:32Z")

</div>

> Simon Kornblith wrote:
> 
> > Is this worth adding? It’s required for my EndNote to CSL style  
> > converter to work properly, since EndNote doesn’t use localized  
> > terms,  
> > but otherwise I don’t know what utility it would have. If the answer  
> > is no, the converter can just produce slightly invalid CSL.
> 
> “Slightly invalid”? From the schema perspective, it’s either valid, or  
> it’s not.

Only if you don’t check what the errors are. There’s a huge difference  
between knowingly breaking with the schema by using a single  
unsupported attribute on some element (which, e.g., RDFa encourages  
you to do) and generating something completely invalid.

> Can you clarify, and also give us an example of how such an addition  
> would impact the markup in this case?

I don’t know of a good use case for handwritten styles. With the  
converted EndNote styles, we end up with:

Not something you’d want in a new, handwritten style, but in this  
case, there’s no way around it. Zotero is going to implement this  
attribute whether it’s in the schema or not, but these converted  
styles will probably only exist in the Zotero DB, not as files. Simply  
having the attribute in the schema wouldn’t really encourage this kind  
of usage, since it’s much more awkward than the alternative, but I  
don’t know what application it would have for styles that conform to  
best practices.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 3, 2008, 10:52pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/4 "2008-01-03T22:52:01Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> Only if you don’t check what the errors are. There’s a huge difference  
> between knowingly breaking with the schema by using a single  
> unsupported attribute on some element (which, e.g., RDFa encourages  
> you to do) and generating something completely invalid.

And how would you define the difference?

If there’s need to allow foreign attributes, then the schema can and  
should allow it. Otherwise, it seems pretty clear to me the schema  
author considers such additions to be invalid.

Ergo, if there’s a need to allow foreign attributes in CSL, then we  
should define that in the schema. If we decide that’s not a good idea,  
then don’t do it.

> > Can you clarify, and also give us an example of how such an addition  
> > would impact the markup in this case?
> 
> I don’t know of a good use case for handwritten styles. With the  
> converted EndNote styles, we end up with:
> 
> Not something you’d want in a new, handwritten style, but in this  
> case, there’s no way around it. Zotero is going to implement this  
> attribute whether it’s in the schema or not, but these converted  
> styles will probably only exist in the Zotero DB, not as files.

Why on earth would you do this? I thought Dan’s opening up CSL  
development with the repository was a big step forward. If I understand  
you right, this, it seems to me, would be another two steps back.

I’m a little surprised by this decision to dedicate what I imagine is a  
fair bit of your time to implementing this, since it sounds to me you’re  
saying the styles will only be:

a) local to a particular user and database  
b) specific to a single language

… when there’s still a lot of room to incrementally enhance csledit.xul.

OTOH, is there some reason you couldn’t just use the tool to do a batch  
conversion of a few hundred styles and get volunteers to bring them up  
to best practice standards as needed, make them available in the  
repository, etc.?

Maybe along with that offer a style conversion web service that  
automatically can load the style for the contributing user?

> Simply having the attribute in the schema wouldn’t really encourage this kind  
> of usage, since it’s much more awkward than the alternative, but I  
> don’t know what application it would have for styles that conform to  
> best practices.

We have three options on the schema end:

1. do nothing
2. add the attribute
3. do not add the attribute, but allow foreign attributes in the  
conditional elements

I’m agnostic on what to do, though lean towards 2 or 3. If there’s a  
clear use case for the attribute other than this particular case, then  
I’d lean stronger toward option 2.

Any other opinions?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 2:28am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/5 "2008-01-04T02:28:56Z")

</div>

> Why on earth would you do this? I thought Dan’s opening up CSL  
> development with the repository was a big step forward. If I  
> understand  
> you right, this, it seems to me, would be another two steps back.

Because it will be a while time before we have the kind of style  
support that EndNote does, and from an end user’s perspective, Zotero  
is much less useful if you can’t use Word integration to submit to the  
journals you need to submit to. I know quite a few scientists who use  
Zotero to retrieve their references, but then need to export back to  
EndNote to write their papers. Remember, EndNote supposedly has 3000+  
styles. While many are probably duplicates, it’s a huge advantage to  
the end user to be able to use these.

> I’m a little surprised by this decision to dedicate what I imagine  
> is a  
> fair bit of your time to implementing this, since it sounds to me  
> you’re  
> saying the styles will only be:
> 
> a) local to a particular user and database  
> b) specific to a single language
> 
> … when there’s still a lot of room to incrementally enhance  
> csledit.xul.

To users in the sciences, who are typically submitting to journals,  
(b) doesn’t matter, and given that the EndNote styles are freely  
available online and already on the hard drives of all of our users  
migrating from EndNote, (a) isn’t much of an issue either. I agree  
that there’s room to enhance csledit.xul, but by supporting EndNote  
styles, we greatly increase the number of styles available to Zotero  
with much less effort than would be required to write hundreds of  
styles by hand. Eventually, we do hope to have a better CSL editor and  
many more CSL-based styles available, but a suitable editor alone will  
require far more effort than the EndNote converter, which took a few  
hours a day over the course of a week.

> OTOH, is there some reason you couldn’t just use the tool to do a  
> batch  
> conversion of a few hundred styles and get volunteers to bring them up  
> to best practice standards as needed, make them available in the  
> repository, etc.?
> 
> Maybe along with that offer a style conversion web service that  
> automatically can load the style for the contributing user?

This is an idea that we have entertained and are still considering,  
but unfortunately, if we are converting Thomson/ISI’s styles, there  
are potential copyright issues involved that we would prefer to avoid.  
If you’d like to take on the liability, you’re welcome to do this.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 6:20am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/6 "2008-01-04T06:20:11Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> > Why on earth would you do this? I thought Dan’s opening up CSL  
> > development with the repository was a big step forward. If I  
> > understand  
> > you right, this, it seems to me, would be another two steps back.
> 
> Because it will be a while time before we have the kind of style  
> support that EndNote does, and from an end user’s perspective, Zotero  
> is much less useful if you can’t use Word integration to submit to the  
> journals you need to submit to. I know quite a few scientists who use  
> Zotero to retrieve their references, but then need to export back to  
> EndNote to write their papers. Remember, EndNote supposedly has 3000+  
> styles. While many are probably duplicates, it’s a huge advantage to  
> the end user to be able to use these.

It’s a huge advantage for us to be able to format our references for  
specific journals without thought; no quarrel there.

But it doesn’t follow that allowing, and even encouraging, individual  
users to use styles private to them is a good idea. _That_ is what I’m  
concerned about.

> > I’m a little surprised by this decision to dedicate what I imagine  
> > is a  
> > fair bit of your time to implementing this, since it sounds to me  
> > you’re  
> > saying the styles will only be:
> > 
> > a) local to a particular user and database  
> > b) specific to a single language
> > 
> > … when there’s still a lot of room to incrementally enhance  
> > csledit.xul.
> 
> To users in the sciences, who are typically submitting to journals,  
> (b) doesn’t matter, and given that the EndNote styles are freely  
> available online and already on the hard drives of all of our users  
> migrating from EndNote, (a) isn’t much of an issue either. I agree  
> that there’s room to enhance csledit.xul, but by supporting EndNote  
> styles, we greatly increase the number of styles available to Zotero  
> with much less effort than would be required to write hundreds of  
> styles by hand.

Yeah, but what good are they if the resulting CSLs are not  
distributable, editable (in the repository), etc.?

> Eventually, we do hope to have a better CSL editor and  
> many more CSL-based styles available, but a suitable editor alone will  
> require far more effort than the EndNote converter, which took a few  
> hours a day over the course of a week.
> 
> > OTOH, is there some reason you couldn’t just use the tool to do a  
> > batch  
> > conversion of a few hundred styles and get volunteers to bring them up  
> > to best practice standards as needed, make them available in the  
> > repository, etc.?
> > 
> > Maybe along with that offer a style conversion web service that  
> > automatically can load the style for the contributing user?
> 
> This is an idea that we have entertained and are still considering,  
> but unfortunately, if we are converting Thomson/ISI’s styles, there  
> are potential copyright issues involved that we would prefer to avoid.

Sure. But if you were concerned about this, why did you even bother with  
Endnote? Why not BibTeX, which has a long tradition of openness, and  
tons of styles (particularly in the sciences and math)?

Second, I’m not so sure about the rights issues; INAL. Perhaps the  
copyright issues would not apply to a web service where individual users  
uploaded the styles? Or perhaps they would? I have a feeling that an  
extreme interpretation might say even converting the files at all is  
some kind of legal violation.

Even more ugly: what happens if someone takes a converted style, and  
modifies it? If we accept there might be copyright issues with  
distributing the first, what about the second? Does this then risk a  
pollution of open CSL styles by copyright-encumbered content?

Hmm … perhaps we need to talk to a lawyer 😉

Beyond that, my main concern is that I do not want to create two classes  
of CSL styles: those that are buried in SQL and unavailable for wider  
use, and those that are publicly available.

I might be wrong, but I have serious worry that this might be something  
like a zero-sum game; e.g. that doing what you’re doing will in fact  
undermine the future growth of publicly available CSL styles.

And, frankly, I’m again bothered by the tendency of your project to  
implement features like this without any outside discussion. The only  
reason you even raised the issue here is because you want a new  
attribute. You haven’t even rolled out 1.02, with its very cool  
one-click auto-installation of CSL files, and you’re already looking to  
implement something in a way which on face value (e.g. based on what I  
can glean from what you’ve said) sounds like it will be in conflict with  
that approach and vision.

I’m not really saying don’t do it (as if that would have any effect  
anyway), but I am asking that you guys see if there’s a way to address  
my concerns, and maybe open up a public discussion of this issue on  
zotero-dev. E.g. what’s the plan that gets us to, say, 1000 _openly  
available_ CSL styles?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 7:07am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/7 "2008-01-04T07:07:05Z")

</div>

> Sure. But if you were concerned about this, why did you even bother  
> with  
> Endnote? Why not BibTeX, which has a long tradition of openness, and  
> tons of styles (particularly in the sciences and math)?

Have you seen a BST file? Implementing BibTeX support would involve  
rewriting much of LaTeX in JavaScript, which I’m really not up for,  
and there’s really no way to convert BSTs to CSL’s. EndNote’s style  
format, once you get past the binary shell, is really not that far off  
from CSL, with prefix and suffix parameters, various disambiguation  
options, etc.

> Second, I’m not so sure about the rights issues; INAL. Perhaps the  
> copyright issues would not apply to a web service where individual  
> users  
> uploaded the styles? Or perhaps they would? I have a feeling that an  
> extreme interpretation might say even converting the files at all is  
> some kind of legal violation.

We are still consulting a lawyer about this, but my feeling is that  
converting the files, like ripping a CD, is not a rights violation.  
Whether distributing converted styles presents a rights issue depends  
on whether it is possible to construct multiple EndNote style files  
that represent a given style, among other things, which is somewhat  
unclear to me. In any case, conversion seems less likely to provoke a  
lawsuit.

> Even more ugly: what happens if someone takes a converted style, and  
> modifies it? If we accept there might be copyright issues with  
> distributing the first, what about the second? Does this then risk a  
> pollution of open CSL styles by copyright-encumbered content?
> 
> Hmm … perhaps we need to talk to a lawyer 😉

We are doing that. I think that the amount of modification required to  
make a converted style look like a handwritten CSL would probably be  
sufficient to eliminate any copyright issues. While I could neaten  
them up, at the moment, the converter generates absolutely hideous CSL  
because there’s no real reason for it not to as long as the styles  
will be private. Besides, pulling the EndNote CSL out of the database  
would involve some tricks.

> Beyond that, my main concern is that I do not want to create two  
> classes  
> of CSL styles: those that are buried in SQL and unavailable for wider  
> use, and those that are publicly available.

If it would make you more comfortable, I can store the EndNote file in  
the DB and convert it at runtime, so it doesn’t really exist at all.

> I might be wrong, but I have serious worry that this might be  
> something  
> like a zero-sum game; e.g. that doing what you’re doing will in fact  
> undermine the future growth of publicly available CSL styles.

My hunch is that those who are currently producing CSLs, inside and  
outside of our project, will continue to do so. While our style  
repository has expanded recently, thanks to the support of Julian and  
a few others, it will be a long time before we reach EndNote’s level.  
To get any kind of growth beyond this small group, as you know, we  
need a nice graphical style editor, which presents some difficult UI  
and programming issues.

If you want to propose potential UIs (which I’d be happy to discuss on  
this list), or maybe even contribute some code, so that we can get a  
style editor done faster, perhaps that could assuage these concerns? I  
personally was thinking of something like Apple’s UI for setting the  
date format on OS X, although certain issues like conditionals, groups  
with delimiters, etc. are hard to model from a UI standpoint.

> And, frankly, I’m again bothered by the tendency of your project to  
> implement features like this without any outside discussion. The only  
> reason you even raised the issue here is because you want a new  
> attribute. You haven’t even rolled out 1.02, with its very cool  
> one-click auto-installation of CSL files, and you’re already looking  
> to  
> implement something in a way which on face value (e.g. based on what I  
> can glean from what you’ve said) sounds like it will be in conflict  
> with  
> that approach and vision.

I am just as committed to CSL as you are, but I am also committed to  
Zotero. The fact is, Zotero is much less useful if you can’t use it to  
write your papers. I don’t see why you find interoperability with  
EndNote styles to be in conflict with auto-installation of CSL files:  
both are ways of expanding style support.

The discussion isn’t exactly private. There is a ticket on Trac (#704)  
with a bit of discussion on it already. You are welcome to attach any  
relevant comments there (you already have an account, IIRC), and we  
will consider them. Ultimately, however, unnecessary bureaucracy is  
detrimental to a project’s health.

> I’m not really saying don’t do it (as if that would have any effect  
> anyway), but I am asking that you guys see if there’s a way to address  
> my concerns, and maybe open up a public discussion of this issue on  
> zotero-dev. E.g. what’s the plan that gets us to, say, 1000 _openly  
> available_ CSL styles?

We don’t have the programmers to commit to that at the moment, which  
is why we’re working on the EndNote converter. If this is your  
concern, perhaps you could donate some styles yourself? It seems like  
Julian’s been doing nearly all of the work on that front.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 9:54am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/8 "2008-01-04T09:54:28Z")

</div>

Simon–

> We are doing that. I think that the amount of modification required to  
> make a converted style look like a handwritten CSL would probably be  
> sufficient to eliminate any copyright issues. While I could neaten  
> them up, at the moment, the converter generates absolutely hideous CSL  
> because there’s no real reason for it not to as long as the styles  
> will be private. Besides, pulling the EndNote CSL out of the database  
> would involve some tricks.

I looked at the 704 ticket discussion and it seems then that steps  
could be taken for users to modify styles converted from Endnote, and  
then contribute those copyright-free versions to the public  
repository. Down the road, would it be possible to do any of this:

1. Allow users to load converted Endnote styles in csledit.xul (or a  
future visual editor), edit them, and then contribute to the public  
Zotero CSL repository

2. Use a dialogue on conversion that determines whether a style is  
user-developed (i.e. in a desktop version of Endnote) vs. Thompson’s  
and then give users an option to contribute their own styles to the  
public repository right away. Some Endnote users modify styles in  
Endnote to create their own, and those would presumably be copyright-  
free at the outset.

3. Perhaps generate a less hideous CSL that is more easily editable  
to encourage such contributions (but I understand that will take more  
time)

I’m curious–how do you match Endnote and Zotero item types on  
conversion? Or do you just convert major item types like book, book  
section, and journal/magazine/newspaper articles? It seems that when  
hierarchical and custom item types are implemented (and perhaps even  
now) all styles converted from Endnote would need to be user-editable  
to allow for formatting of Zotero-specific item types.

It may be useful to have a dialogue that tells a user on conversion  
if a public Zotero style for the same journal/standard (with better  
support for Zotero item types) is available. This way new users will  
be prevented from adding a style they have used in Endnote if a  
better Zotero style exists.

Many thanks for your work on this.

Best,  
Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 10:17am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/9 "2008-01-04T10:17:26Z")

</div>

> Simon–
> 
> > We are doing that. I think that the amount of modification required  
> > to  
> > make a converted style look like a handwritten CSL would probably be  
> > sufficient to eliminate any copyright issues. While I could neaten  
> > them up, at the moment, the converter generates absolutely hideous  
> > CSL  
> > because there’s no real reason for it not to as long as the styles  
> > will be private. Besides, pulling the EndNote CSL out of the database  
> > would involve some tricks.
> 
> I looked at the 704 ticket discussion and it seems then that steps  
> could be taken for users to modify styles converted from Endnote, and  
> then contribute those copyright-free versions to the public  
> repository. Down the road, would it be possible to do any of this:
> 
> 1. Allow users to load converted Endnote styles in csledit.xul (or a  
> future visual editor), edit them, and then contribute to the public  
> Zotero CSL repository

This would be easy to implement, although we should further  
investigate the possible legal issues first.

> 1. Use a dialogue on conversion that determines whether a style is  
> user-developed (i.e. in a desktop version of Endnote) vs. Thompson’s  
> and then give users an option to contribute their own styles to the  
> public repository right away. Some Endnote users modify styles in  
> Endnote to create their own, and those would presumably be copyright-  
> free at the outset.

This is a good idea. We could simply use a list of Thomson’s styles to  
ensure that the user isn’t contributing one, I suppose.

> 1. Perhaps generate a less hideous CSL that is more easily editable  
> to encourage such contributions (but I understand that will take more  
> time)

If we go this route, I’d create a tool to clean up any CSL, since it  
would be more useful than tying this to the EndNote converter. There  
will still be some messiness, since EndNote uses separate definitions  
for every item type, which results in some additional complexity.

> I’m curious–how do you match Endnote and Zotero item types on  
> conversion? Or do you just convert major item types like book, book  
> section, and journal/magazine/newspaper articles? It seems that when  
> hierarchical and custom item types are implemented (and perhaps even  
> now) all styles converted from Endnote would need to be user-editable  
> to allow for formatting of Zotero-specific item types.

Not all item types and variables can be mapped. Right now, I map:

Journal Article  
Newspaper Article  
Magazine Article  
Electronic Article  
Book  
Edited Book  
Electronic Book  
Book Section  
Thesis  
Personal Communication  
Report  
Map  
Graphic  
Patent  
Web Page  
Bill  
Case  
Manuscript  
Film or Broadcast  
Figure  
Conference Paper  
Legal Rule or Regulation  
Dictionary Entry  
Encyclopedia Entry

We also map the EndNote “Generic” entry, which gets applied to all  
other item types.

I don’t map:

Conference Proceedings  
Computer Program  
Audiovisual Material  
Hearing  
Statute  
Chart or Table  
Equation  
Online Database  
Online Multimedia  
Government Document  
Classical Work  
Unpublished Work  
Ancient Text  
Grant

Is it really impossible to cite conference proceedings in CSL, or am I  
missing something? Are any of these other types useful to us?

> It may be useful to have a dialogue that tells a user on conversion  
> if a public Zotero style for the same journal/standard (with better  
> support for Zotero item types) is available. This way new users will  
> be prevented from adding a style they have used in Endnote if a  
> better Zotero style exists.

This is also a good idea, but might be a little tricky. I’ll talk to  
Dan about implementing it.

Simon

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 11:21am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/10 "2008-01-04T11:21:46Z")

</div>

Bruce–

> Beyond that, my main concern is that I do not want to create two  
> classes  
> of CSL styles: those that are buried in SQL and unavailable for wider  
> use, and those that are publicly available.
> 
> I might be wrong, but I have serious worry that this might be  
> something  
> like a zero-sum game; e.g. that doing what you’re doing will in fact  
> undermine the future growth of publicly available CSL styles.

I think if there is a way for users to modify and contribute Endnote  
styles to the public repository (see my previous message on this)  
this will not be an issue.

> And, frankly, I’m again bothered by the tendency of your project to  
> implement features like this without any outside discussion. The only  
> reason you even raised the issue here is because you want a new  
> attribute. You haven’t even rolled out 1.02, with its very cool  
> one-click auto-installation of CSL files, and you’re already  
> looking to  
> implement something in a way which on face value (e.g. based on what I  
> can glean from what you’ve said) sounds like it will be in conflict  
> with  
> that approach and vision.
> 
> I’m not really saying don’t do it (as if that would have any effect  
> anyway), but I am asking that you guys see if there’s a way to address  
> my concerns, and maybe open up a public discussion of this issue on  
> zotero-dev. E.g. what’s the plan that gets us to, say, 1000 _openly  
> available_ CSL styles?

Well, what is your plan that gets us to 1000 _openly available_ CSL  
styles?

Realistically, the CSL project would not be moving forward at the  
current pace if Zotero developers/users weren’t working on it–are  
there CSL developers not visible on this list who are working away on  
the styles and the schema? If not, the opposition of “your  
project” (Zotero) vs. “my project” (CSL project owned by Bruce)  
doesn’t really make sense to me.

Best,  
Elena\> Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 1:00pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/11 "2008-01-04T13:00:24Z")

</div>

> I don’t map:
> 
> Conference Proceedings  
> Computer Program  
> Audiovisual Material  
> Hearing  
> Statute  
> Chart or Table  
> Equation  
> Online Database  
> Online Multimedia  
> Government Document  
> Classical Work  
> Unpublished Work  
> Ancient Text  
> Grant
> 
> Is it really impossible to cite conference proceedings in CSL, or am I  
> missing something? Are any of these other types useful to us?

From fields available in a trial version of Endnote X1 for Mac, it  
seems that the mapping is as follows:

[Endnote \> Zotero \> CSL]

Conference Paper \> Conference Paper \> chapter

Conference Proceedings \> Presentation \> paper-conference

I.e, what they call “conference proceedings” is actually a conference  
presentation, and what they call “conference paper” is a paper  
published in conference proceedings.

But this may be different from previous versions of Endnote. Which  
version should I be looking at?

Other useful types may be (if the mapping works):

[Endnote \> CSL]

Unpublished work \> manuscript

Government Document \> report

Audiovisual material, Hearing, and Statute seem important (and have  
Zotero equivalents) but CSL doesn’t seem to support them, so I’m not  
sure what to do about that.

Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 2:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/12 "2008-01-04T14:40:13Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> > Sure. But if you were concerned about this, why did you even bother  
> > with  
> > Endnote? Why not BibTeX, which has a long tradition of openness, and  
> > tons of styles (particularly in the sciences and math)?
> 
> Have you seen a BST file? Implementing BibTeX support would involve  
> rewriting much of LaTeX in JavaScript, which I’m really not up for,  
> and there’s really no way to convert BSTs to CSL’s. EndNote’s style  
> format, once you get past the binary shell, is really not that far off  
> from CSL, with prefix and suffix parameters, various disambiguation  
> options, etc.

Yeah, fair enough.

…

> We are doing that. I think that the amount of modification required to  
> make a converted style look like a handwritten CSL would probably be  
> sufficient to eliminate any copyright issues. While I could neaten  
> them up, at the moment, the converter generates absolutely hideous CSL  
> because there’s no real reason for it not to as long as the styles  
> will be private. Besides, pulling the EndNote CSL out of the database  
> would involve some tricks.
> 
> > Beyond that, my main concern is that I do not want to create two  
> > classes  
> > of CSL styles: those that are buried in SQL and unavailable for wider  
> > use, and those that are publicly available.
> 
> If it would make you more comfortable, I can store the EndNote file in  
> the DB and convert it at runtime, so it doesn’t really exist at all.

That might be better in the short-run, though if you can figure out a  
way to get good CSL files that can be openly distributed, that would be  
ideal.

…

> I am just as committed to CSL as you are, but I am also committed to  
> Zotero. The fact is, Zotero is much less useful if you can’t use it to  
> write your papers. I don’t see why you find interoperability with  
> EndNote styles to be in conflict with auto-installation of CSL files:  
> both are ways of expanding style support.

I have no problem with converting Endnote styles to CSL. I just want  
those styles to then be freely available.

The problem point I see is: what incentive do users have to submit or  
enhance CSL files if they just download Endnote ones?

> The discussion isn’t exactly private. There is a ticket on Trac (#704)  
> with a bit of discussion on it already. You are welcome to attach any  
> relevant comments there (you already have an account, IIRC), and we  
> will consider them. Ultimately, however, unnecessary bureaucracy is  
> detrimental to a project’s health.

Sure, but suggesting that it’s a good idea for you guys to layout  
roadmaps and discuss important new features in public is hardly  
“unnecessary bureaucracy”; it’s how any viable free software project  
works and succeeds.

> > I’m not really saying don’t do it (as if that would have any effect  
> > anyway), but I am asking that you guys see if there’s a way to address  
> > my concerns, and maybe open up a public discussion of this issue on  
> > zotero-dev. E.g. what’s the plan that gets us to, say, 1000 _openly  
> > available_ CSL styles?
> 
> We don’t have the programmers to commit to that at the moment, which  
> is why we’re working on the EndNote converter. If this is your  
> concern, perhaps you could donate some styles yourself?  
> It seems like Julian’s been doing nearly all of the work on that front.

I’m not putting this in your lap; I’m saying what’s the (collective)  
plan to get there? What are the steps we all need to take to get to that  
endpoint?

Obviously creating and enhancing CSL was an excellent first step, and  
Zotero opening up the styles repository was an excellent second step.  
But how do we now get from here to that endpoint of a dramatically  
larger set of freely available styles. It seems this discussion  
clarifies some of that, but I’d just suggest keeping this goal in mind.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 4, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/is-plural-attribute-on-conditional/398/13 "2008-01-04T15:27:17Z")

</div>

Elena,

Elena Razlogova wrote:

> Bruce–
> 
> > Beyond that, my main concern is that I do not want to create two  
> > classes  
> > of CSL styles: those that are buried in SQL and unavailable for wider  
> > use, and those that are publicly available.
> > 
> > I might be wrong, but I have serious worry that this might be  
> > something  
> > like a zero-sum game; e.g. that doing what you’re doing will in fact  
> > undermine the future growth of publicly available CSL styles.
> 
> I think if there is a way for users to modify and contribute Endnote  
> styles to the public repository (see my previous message on this)  
> this will not be an issue.

Yes, this is the key point, and I think your suggestions toward that end  
were good. If we can find a way to do this, then there’s no problem at all.

> > And, frankly, I’m again bothered by the tendency of your project to  
> > implement features like this without any outside discussion. The only  
> > reason you even raised the issue here is because you want a new  
> > attribute. You haven’t even rolled out 1.02, with its very cool  
> > one-click auto-installation of CSL files, and you’re already  
> > looking to  
> > implement something in a way which on face value (e.g. based on what I  
> > can glean from what you’ve said) sounds like it will be in conflict  
> > with  
> > that approach and vision.
> > 
> > I’m not really saying don’t do it (as if that would have any effect  
> > anyway), but I am asking that you guys see if there’s a way to address  
> > my concerns, and maybe open up a public discussion of this issue on  
> > zotero-dev. E.g. what’s the plan that gets us to, say, 1000 _openly  
> > available_ CSL styles?
> 
> Well, what is your plan that gets us to 1000 _openly available_ CSL  
> styles?

I think the discussion has clarified that. The key is to find a way to  
build up the public repository, as you note. And, of course, we need  
someone, somewhere, to finish a good editor.

The rather unfortunate reality is the more powerful CSL has become, the  
more difficult it is to implement in a GUI. There’s still some features  
I’d like to add back in (like grouped lists), that would further that trend.

> Realistically, the CSL project would not be moving forward at the  
> current pace if Zotero developers/users weren’t working on it–

Sure.

> are there CSL developers not visible on this list who are working away on  
> the styles and the schema? If not, the opposition of “your  
> project” (Zotero) vs. “my project” (CSL project owned by Bruce)  
> doesn’t really make sense to me.

There are other developers working on CSL implementations, and I just  
heard from another today. And there are still others contemplating  
implementing it.

To the degree that anyone is interested in CSL, it’s largely for the  
promise of a free and independent language; one that, once we get over  
the hump of increasing the number of available styles and making it  
easier for people to create new ones, can benefit from the viral nature  
of the internet. We’re just trying to solve the chicken-and-egg problem  
to our collective benefit!

And these _are_ two different projects, with two different project  
leads. There’s going to at times be communication issues; no big deal.

Bruce