# grouping

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [January 12, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530 "2009-01-12T18:11:10Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530/1 "2009-01-12T18:11:10Z")

</div>

In the past couple of months, I’ve seen a number of requests for a  
kind of style that CSL does not currently support very well. See, for  
example:

[http://www.aaanet.org/publications/style\_guide.pdf](http://www.aaanet.org/publications/style_guide.pdf)

The bib looks like this:

Clutton-Brock, Juliet, and Caroline Grigson, eds.  
1986 Animals and Archaeology, vol. 1: Hunters and Their Prey. BAR  
International Series, 163.  
Oxford: British Archaeological Reports.  
1998 The Practice of Everyday Life, vol. 2: Living and Cooking.  
Rev. edition. Luce Giard, ed.  
Timothy J. Tomasik, trans. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.

So:

#1. the author groups have a heading with the author name(s)

#2. the main body of bib entries is indented vis-a-vis the heading

In theory, #1 could be covered currently by a) treating the author as  
a block, and b) setting the subsequent author attribute to be empty.  
But Zotero does not correctly handle the second case. Also, I see no  
way to indent the rest of the content.

One option is to allow something like:

 ...

Another, more general, solution, is to add back the grouping support  
we used to have. This would also allow having separate lists for  
different kinds of sources.

Any thoughts? I guess I’m in favor of an incremental “the simplest  
that works” solution that could then later be built on if necessary.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530/2 "2009-01-20T12:24:01Z")

</div>

> In the past couple of months, I’ve seen a number of requests for a  
> kind of style that CSL does not currently support very well. See, for  
> example:
> 
> [http://www.aaanet.org/publications/style\_guide.pdf](http://www.aaanet.org/publications/style_guide.pdf)
> 
> The bib looks like this:
> 
> Clutton-Brock, Juliet, and Caroline Grigson, eds.  
> 1986 Animals and Archaeology, vol. 1: Hunters and Their Prey. BAR  
> International Series, 163.  
> Oxford: British Archaeological Reports.  
> 1998 The Practice of Everyday Life, vol. 2: Living and Cooking.  
> Rev. edition. Luce Giard, ed.  
> Timothy J. Tomasik, trans. Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
> 
> So:
> 
> #1. the author groups have a heading with the author name(s)
> 
> #2. the main body of bib entries is indented vis-a-vis the heading
> 
> In theory, #1 could be covered currently by a) treating the author as  
> a block, and b) setting the subsequent author attribute to be empty.  
> But Zotero does not correctly handle the second case. Also, I see no  
> way to indent the rest of the content.
> 
> One option is to allow something like:
> 
> ...

This looks like an attempt at visual formatting. Shouldn’t it be  
enough for CSL to set the structure, and let the display engine take  
care of the rest? Something like:

...

> Another, more general, solution, is to add back the grouping support  
> we used to have. This would also allow having separate lists for  
> different kinds of sources.

Separate bibliographies? There’s definitely demand. What was the old  
grouping support like?

Frank

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 2:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530/3 "2009-01-20T14:40:35Z")

</div>

…

> > One option is to allow something like:
> > 
> > ...
> 
> This looks like an attempt at visual formatting.

We can’t avoid that; the trick is to make it generic enough that it  
works for the different possible output formats.

> Shouldn’t it be  
> enough for CSL to set the structure, and let the display engine take  
> care of the rest? Something like:
> 
> ...

Well, we already have configuration for spacing between entries and  
such, so it would just use that same mechanism.

> > Another, more general, solution, is to add back the grouping support  
> > we used to have. This would also allow having separate lists for  
> > different kinds of sources.
> 
> Separate bibliographies? There’s definitely demand. What was the old  
> grouping support like?

See this old version for an example:

[http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50](http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50)

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530/4 "2009-01-20T21:41:09Z")

</div>

> …
> 
> > > One option is to allow something like:
> > > 
> > > ...
> > 
> > This looks like an attempt at visual formatting.
> 
> We can’t avoid that; the trick is to make it generic enough that it  
> works for the different possible output formats.

The next question would be, “0.5 of what?” Could be em-space,  
en-space, px, or a self-defined unit specified as an option. Should  
the meaning of “0.5” change when the user changes the font size in the  
word processor? If the user wants an additional sliver of vertical  
space between the author names and the remainder of the citation, is  
there to be an option for that as well? You could end up  
reimplementing a good big chunk of CSS to cover the possible use  
cases.

> > Shouldn’t it be  
> > enough for CSL to set the structure, and let the display engine take  
> > care of the rest? Something like:
> > 
> > ...
> 
> Well, we already have configuration for spacing between entries and  
> such, so it would just use that same mechanism.

That’s different; spacing is a semantic element of the language being  
written, it’s broken English to omit a space after a semi-colon. What  
you have here is visual layout; the amount of space is a matter of  
taste and style. If you hard-code the spacing in CSL, a user who  
wants a different amount of spacing will be driven to request detailed  
changes to CSL to get things looking right.

For a general solution, you want to separate structure from visual  
formatting. Structurally, the names in the example are a discrete  
sub-element of the citation. All CSL needs to do is define that  
grouping. What the word processor does with that group is a matter  
for the plugin to handle, in a way that gives the user editorial  
control, independent of CSL.

The output formats supported by CSL are all tagged and styled (HTML,  
Open Document, whatever Word uses), so all you need is a named block  
environment around the portion of the output to be indented. You can  
leave the rest is to the word processor. That way, if the user wants  
different spacing, they edit the style (the CSS for HTML, or the style  
in Word or Open Office). Your support burden is reduced to pointing  
them at a page that explains how to do that.

> > > Another, more general, solution, is to add back the grouping support  
> > > we used to have. This would also allow having separate lists for  
> > > different kinds of sources.
> > 
> > Separate bibliographies? There’s definitely demand. What was the old  
> > grouping support like?
> 
> See this old version for an example:
> 
> [http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50](http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50)

Which tags in the example perform grouping?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 20, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/grouping/530/5 "2009-01-20T22:53:29Z")

</div>

> > …
> > 
> > > > One option is to allow something like:
> > > > 
> > > > ...
> > > 
> > > This looks like an attempt at visual formatting.
> > 
> > We can’t avoid that; the trick is to make it generic enough that it  
> > works for the different possible output formats.
> 
> The next question would be, “0.5 of what?” Could be em-space,  
> en-space, px, or a self-defined unit specified as an option.

IIRC it’d be em. But I’ve not thought about this for awhile.

> Should the meaning of “0.5” change when the user changes the font size in the  
> word processor? If the user wants an additional sliver of vertical  
> space between the author names and the remainder of the citation, is  
> there to be an option for that as well? You could end up  
> reimplementing a good big chunk of CSS to cover the possible use  
> cases.
> 
> > > Shouldn’t it be  
> > > enough for CSL to set the structure, and let the display engine take  
> > > care of the rest? Something like:
> > > 
> > > ...
> > 
> > Well, we already have configuration for spacing between entries and  
> > such, so it would just use that same mechanism.
> 
> That’s different; spacing is a semantic element of the language being  
> written, it’s broken English to omit a space after a semi-colon.

I think that depends on what part of the English-speaking world you’re in.

> What you have here is visual layout; the amount of space is a matter of  
> taste and style. If you hard-code the spacing in CSL, a user who  
> wants a different amount of spacing will be driven to request detailed  
> changes to CSL to get things looking right.

The question is here, how to configure CSL in such a way that  
different blocks are indented differently. From a user perspective,  
the formatting will simply be wrong if it’s not indented at all.

> For a general solution, you want to separate structure from visual  
> formatting. Structurally, the names in the example are a discrete  
> sub-element of the citation. All CSL needs to do is define that  
> grouping. What the word processor does with that group is a matter  
> for the plugin to handle, in a way that gives the user editorial  
> control, independent of CSL.

That’s indeed a possibility. I believe ATM handing-indents are a  
simple parameter, with details left to the client. But we need  
something equivalent to accommodate this use case well then.

> The output formats supported by CSL are all tagged and styled (HTML,  
> Open Document, whatever Word uses), so all you need is a named block  
> environment around the portion of the output to be indented. You can  
> leave the rest is to the word processor. That way, if the user wants  
> different spacing, they edit the style (the CSS for HTML, or the style  
> in Word or Open Office). Your support burden is reduced to pointing  
> them at a page that explains how to do that.
> 
> > > > Another, more general, solution, is to add back the grouping support  
> > > > we used to have. This would also allow having separate lists for  
> > > > different kinds of sources.
> > > 
> > > Separate bibliographies? There’s definitely demand. What was the old  
> > > grouping support like?
> > 
> > See this old version for an example:
> > 
> > [http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50](http://xbiblio.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/xbiblio/csl/styles/apa-en.csl?revision=15&view=markup&pathrev=50)
> 
> Which tags in the example perform grouping?

Look at lines 43-57.

Bruce