# French particles
**URL:** https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207
**Category:** CSL Development
**Created:** [November 7, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207 "2013-11-07T01:40:03Z")
**Posts on this page:** 8
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/1 "2013-11-07T01:40:03Z")
There has been another comment on name particles, for French:
```
https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/33082/french-name-particles/#Item_1
```
I’m not sure how discriminate treatment of lowercase and uppercase
particles aligns with the schema. If the list can provide guidance, it
would be great: if the CSL position is that we should always treat
uppercase particles as part of the name, I can set that up; if the schema
doesn’t cover it, and French specifically requires it, I guess it will need
to be specified.
---
### Author:  [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)
#### Post date: [November 7, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/2 "2013-11-07T01:52:05Z")
Isn’t that a Zotero name parsing issue; not a CSL design issue?
---
### Author:  [@Aurimas\_Vinckevicius](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Aurimas_Vinckevicius)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/3 "2013-11-13T16:48:58Z")
I don’t think it’s a Zotero issue. Zotero supplies the last name correctly
(with the non-dropping particle attached). It’s up to CSL to decide where
this should sort in the bibliography.–
View this message in context: [http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html](http://xbiblio-devel.2463403.n2.nabble.com/French-particles-tp7578826p7578828.html)
Sent from the xbiblio-devel mailing list archive at [Nabble.com](http://Nabble.com).
---
### Author:  [@Charles\_Parnot](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Charles_Parnot)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/4 "2013-11-13T17:11:12Z")
I think what Bruce meant is that it’s up to the client (Zotero parser) to decide which part of a name is a dropping particle or a non-dropping particle. I agree with that.
---
### Author:  [@Aurimas\_Vinckevicius](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Aurimas_Vinckevicius)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/5 "2013-11-13T17:19:24Z")
But I thought there was no question that this is a non-dropping particle
(i.e. it should always be displayed with the last name), but the sorting in
bibliography is not always according to the particle. From the post on the
forums linked in the initial message:
In French, names must be classified according to the letter of the nam when\> the particle is lower case (example: de Villepin is found in V in the
---
### Author:  [@Aurimas\_Vinckevicius](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Aurimas_Vinckevicius)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/6 "2013-11-13T17:28:46Z")
Nvm, I see what you’re saying. Zotero should be parsing out “de” in “de
Villepin” and placing it in the non-dropping-particle, but should leave
"De" in “De Maison” as part of the family name. Is that right?
---
### Author:  [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 8:33pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/7 "2013-11-13T20:33:27Z")
Bruce had it to a “t”, I wasn’t thinking this through.
The OP just needed to distinguish dropping from non-dropping particles
in their data, which is already handled by the client UI. Gracile
spotted the issue, and user reports that the problem is solved.
Sorry for the unnecessary traffic.
Frank
---
### Author:  [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)
#### Post date: [November 13, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/french-particles/1207/8 "2013-11-13T20:42:01Z")
It would be good to have a “knowledge base” Zotero dokuwiki page on the
proper entry of names with particles, with an explanation on how they get
parsed from the two-field name fields.
RintzeOn Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Frank Bennett \<@Frank\_Bennett\>wrote: