# et al formatting

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [March 6, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447 "2008-03-06T16:04:48Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 16\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 4:04pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/1 "2008-03-06T16:04:48Z")

</div>

Question from zotero forums:

“Hello. Can anyone perhaps tell me whether it is possible to modity an  
existing citation style so that the et al. is printed in italics?”

Right now I’m pretty sure the answer is “no” (though am tired and  
distracted with 20 things on my desk so could be wrong).

Are we comfortable in saying that will always be the case?

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/2 "2008-03-06T16:38:53Z")

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I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.

I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-al.

Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
missing after a name tag, it is implied.

Johan—  
[http://www.johankool.nl/](http://www.johankool.nl/)

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 2:38pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/3 "2008-03-07T14:38:09Z")

</div>

Johan Kool wrote:

> I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.
> 
> I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
> italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
> actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-al.
> 
> Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
> If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
> missing after a name tag, it is implied.

That’s one option. In essence, the cs:et-al element would be short-hand  
for something like:

This is a potentially mildly painful change requiring changes in  
existing styles and implementations, but if we do it, we should do it now.

Any other opinions? If you think we should add support for styling of et  
al, please specify a preference for how to implement it. Let’s call  
Johan’s “short-hand” version option 1, and the more verbose one option 2.

There’s also a third option which is a mild hack, but is easier all  
around: an “italicize-et-al” option.

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 2:52pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/4 "2008-03-07T14:52:04Z")

</div>

> Johan Kool wrote:
> 
> > I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.
> > 
> > I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
> > italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
> > actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-  
> > al.
> > 
> > Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
> > If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
> > missing after a name tag, it is implied.
> 
> That’s one option. In essence, the cs:et-al element would be short-  
> hand  
> for something like:
> 
> This is a potentially mildly painful change requiring changes in  
> existing styles and implementations, but if we do it, we should do  
> it now.
> 
> Any other opinions? If you think we should add support for styling  
> of et  
> al, please specify a preference for how to implement it. Let’s call  
> Johan’s “short-hand” version option 1, and the more verbose one  
> option 2.

Note that my option as described does not require changes to existing  
styles. It will only need to be present when the formatting needs to  
be changed, or when a different prefix or suffix that the default is  
required (prefix=" " suffix=“” by default?).

> There’s also a third option which is a mild hack, but is easier all  
> around: an “italicize-et-al” option.

JohanOp 7 mrt 2008, om 15:38 heeft Bruce D’Arcus het volgende geschreven:

* * *

> **[Johan Kool](https://johankool.nl/)**
>
> I write apps for iOS and macOS. I am based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

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**Author:** ![Simon\_Kornblith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Simon\_Kornblith](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Simon_Kornblith)\
**Post date:** [March 9, 2008, 12:51am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/5 "2008-03-09T00:51:51Z")

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I think I proposed something similar to this earlier, but it never got  
implemented. I’d just like to add that it might be useful to allow a  
term attribute on as well, to handle styles that want “and  
others” and the like. Otherwise, this looks good to me.

Simon

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/6 "2008-03-11T02:22:57Z")

</div>

Simon Kornblith wrote:\> On Mar 6, 2008, at 8:38 AM, Johan Kool wrote:

> > I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.
> > 
> > I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
> > italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
> > actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-al.
> > 
> > Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
> > If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
> > missing after a name tag, it is implied.
> 
> I think I proposed something similar to this earlier, but it never got  
> implemented. I’d just like to add that it might be useful to allow a  
> term attribute on as well, to handle styles that want “and  
> others” and the like. Otherwise, this looks good to me.

So shall we do this? It would mean adding the new element, and updating  
all existing styles that use et al (and, of course, implementations).

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/7 "2008-03-11T06:08:54Z")

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I vote yes.

Johan—  
[http://johankool.nl](http://johankool.nl)

(Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPod Touch)

Op 11-mrt-2008 om 3:22 heeft Bruce D’Arcus \<@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1\> het  
volgende geschreven:\

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:30am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/8 "2008-03-27T11:30:15Z")

</div>

I forgot about this, but was reminded by a post on the Zotero forums …

Simon Kornblith wrote:

> > I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.
> > 
> > I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
> > italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
> > actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-al.
> > 
> > Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
> > If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
> > missing after a name tag, it is implied.
> 
> I think I proposed something similar to this earlier, but it never got  
> implemented. I’d just like to add that it might be useful to allow a  
> term attribute on as well, to handle styles that want “and  
> others” and the like.

Should that be a global option?

Beyond that, I guess we then agreed that I’d add this:

## if et-al condition on an item is set to “true”, prints

## the appropriate “et al” term in place of substituted

## contributor names

et\_al = element cs:et-al { formatting }

Right?

Once I add this, the styles need to get updated.

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 12:30pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/9 "2008-03-27T12:30:21Z")

</div>

> I forgot about this, but was reminded by a post on the Zotero  
> forums …
> 
> Simon Kornblith wrote:
> 
> > > I don’t see how it is currently possible to use italics for et al.
> > > 
> > > I have no example at hand, but I am pretty sure that both normal and  
> > > italics et al are used. Just to be sure, I think that it should  
> > > actually be possible to use any of the formatting attributes on et-  
> > > al.
> > > 
> > > Something like this? It has to be required to come after a name tag.  
> > > If et-al is not needed it won’t be printed of course, and if it is  
> > > missing after a name tag, it is implied.
> > 
> > I think I proposed something similar to this earlier, but it never  
> > got  
> > implemented. I’d just like to add that it might be useful to allow a  
> > term attribute on as well, to handle styles that want “and  
> > others” and the like.
> 
> Should that be a global option?
> 
> Beyond that, I guess we then agreed that I’d add this:
> 
> ## if et-al condition on an item is set to “true”, prints
> 
> ## the appropriate “et al” term in place of substituted
> 
> ## contributor names
> 
> et\_al = element cs:et-al { formatting }
> 
> Right?
> 
> Once I add this, the styles need to get updated.

Are you sure? I don’t think styles need updating, just the citation  
processors. If processors now ignore the et-al tag, they won’t even  
fail on using newer styles, expect for not using italics on et al  
obviously.

With the option tag specifying when an et al should be used, this  
following snippet can still be rendered. The et-al tag is only needed  
when the et-al requires formatting.

This will be the same as:

If possible, make it so that the schema requires the et-al tag to  
always be preceded with a name tag. Make it optional though, even if  
et-al options are set.

Also, we need an attribute to specify other texts for “et al”, such as  
“and others”.

Then the doc would be something like:

> ## if the et-al condition, set using the et-al-use-min etc.
> 
> options\*, on an item is met, prints
> 
> ## the appropriate “et al” term in place of substituted
> 
> ## contributor names, otherwise prints nothing

- I think I misspelled that one…

JohanOp 27 mrt 2008, om 12:30 heeft Bruce D’Arcus het volgende geschreven:

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:12pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/10 "2008-03-27T13:12:04Z")

</div>

…

> > Once I add this, the styles need to get updated.
> 
> Are you sure? I don’t think styles need updating, just the citation  
> processors. If processors now ignore the et-al tag, they won’t even  
> fail on using newer styles, expect for not using italics on et al  
> obviously.
> 
> With the option tag specifying when an et al should be used, this  
> following snippet can still be rendered. The et-al tag is only needed  
> when the et-al requires formatting.

I’m not thrilled with this idea. It seems to me that we ought to have  
one way to specify the formatting, not two?

> This will be the same as:
> 
> If possible, make it so that the schema requires the et-al tag to  
> always be preceded with a name tag. Make it optional though, even if  
> et-al options are set.
> 
> Also, we need an attribute to specify other texts for “et al”, such as  
> “and others”.

That’s what I was asking about in response to Simon. Shouldn’t this be  
set globally? Maybe an “et-al-term” option?

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/11 "2008-03-27T12:43:16Z")

</div>

> Then the doc would be something like:
> 
> > ## if the et-al condition, set using the et-al-use-min etc.
> > 
> > options\*, on an item is met, prints
> > 
> > ## the appropriate “et al” term in place of substituted
> > 
> > ## contributor names, otherwise prints nothing

perhaps also: default=et al. no italics

i.e. if et\_al element is not set but et-al condition is set to “true,”  
you get the above, otherwise you’ll have to define et\_al.

elena\>\>

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/12 "2008-03-27T13:33:42Z")

</div>

Well, there are two constructs that can be expected.

1):

and 2):

Is 1) invalid XML when the et-al options are set?  
Or will 1) render “et-al” when the et-al options are set? What default  
formatting will it use?  
Or will 1) print all names even when the et-al options are set?

Is 2) invalid XML when the et-al options are not set?  
Or will 2) render “et-al” when the et-al options are not set? What  
default options will it use?  
Or will 2) print all names even when the et-al options are not set?

[snip]

> > “and others”.
> 
> That’s what I was asking about in response to Simon. Shouldn’t this be  
> set globally? Maybe an “et-al-term” option?

I agree, that might indeed be better set with that “et-al-term” option  
you suggest.

> Bruce

Johan—

> **[Johan Kool](https://johankool.nl/)**
>
> I write apps for iOS and macOS. I am based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/13 "2008-03-28T19:14:26Z")

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Sorry, this week is crazy, and I’m dropping things left and right; quickly …

> Well, there are two constructs that can be expected.
> 
> 1):
> 
> and 2):
> 
> Is 1) invalid XML when the et-al options are set?

That would tend to be my preference; e.g. you only print the “et al”  
if that element is present. But I’m open to your veiw if others agree  
with it 😉

> Or will 1) render “et-al” when the et-al options are set? What default  
> formatting will it use?

Default formatting is the same as always: none.

> Or will 1) print all names even when the et-al options are set?

Ah, this is a good point. Need to think on this more over the weekend.

> Is 2) invalid XML when the et-al options are not set?  
> Or will 2) render “et-al” when the et-al options are not set? What  
> default options will it use?  
> Or will 2) print all names even when the et-al options are not set?

As above; will get back to you with my thoughts, and would value other  
opinions in the interim.

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/14 "2008-03-30T16:39:53Z")

</div>

I think I changed my mind. The answers I suggest are not backward  
compatible, but I guess that at this early stage we should go for the  
most logical behavior.

> Well, there are two constructs that can be expected.
> 
> 1):
> 
> and 2):
> 
> Is 1) invalid XML when the et-al options are set?  
> Or will 1) render “et-al” when the et-al options are set? What  
> default formatting will it use?  
> Or will 1) print all names even when the et-al options are set?

I vote for the last one here.

> Is 2) invalid XML when the et-al options are not set?  
> Or will 2) render “et-al” when the et-al options are not set? What  
> default options will it use?  
> Or will 2) print all names when the et-al options are not set?

And this case should be considered invalid XML. (Is it possible to say  
that in the schema, Bruce?)

Johan—

> **[Johan Kool](https://johankool.nl/)**
>
> I write apps for iOS and macOS. I am based in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [March 30, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/15 "2008-03-30T22:51:13Z")

</div>

> I think I changed my mind. The answers I suggest are not backward  
> compatible, but I guess that at this early stage we should go for the  
> most logical behavior.

OK.

> > Well, there are two constructs that can be expected.
> > 
> > 1):
> > 
> > and 2):
> 
> > Is 1) invalid XML when the et-al options are set?
> 
> > Or will 1) render “et-al” when the et-al options are set? What  
> > default formatting will it use?  
> > Or will 1) print all names even when the et-al options are set?
> 
> I vote for the last one here.
> 
> > Is 2) invalid XML when the et-al options are not set?  
> > Or will 2) render “et-al” when the et-al options are not set? What  
> > default options will it use?  
> > Or will 2) print all names when the et-al options are not set?
> 
> And this case should be considered invalid XML. (Is it possible to say  
> that in the schema, Bruce?)

in RELAX NG, yes. It might (?) be a little more verbose to it express  
it, but it’s not hard.

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Johan\_Kool2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@Johan\_Kool2](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Johan_Kool2)\
**Post date:** [April 8, 2008, 9:32am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/et-al-formatting/447/16 "2008-04-08T09:32:20Z")

</div>

Actually, that should indeed work backwards compatible. I can think of  
one other edge case, but I doubt anyone will ever encounter that. I  
guess the best thing to do is to ensure Zotero doesn’t trip over the  
et-al tag, and then go ahead and make the change.

JohanOp 7 apr 2008, om 20:54 heeft Bruce D’Arcus het volgende geschreven: