# CSL Bluebook extensions

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [January 20, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532 "2009-01-20T01:13:52Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 14\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 12:40pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/21 "2009-01-23T12:40:02Z")

</div>

…

> > But we might consider if there may be need for other examples, such  
> > that we might have a more generic option like:
> > 
> > … with me not quite sure what “foo” should be called. Kind of  
> > related to previous discussion of the counting case, where we had  
> > proposed attributes like min-value and max-value (or something like  
> > that).
> 
> This would be great to have, if “foo” is just variable.

Maybe. But I’m not really sure this example is a (data) variable per  
se. Might not make a difference though.

> This would open the way to jurisdiction-specific styling. For example:
> 
> MACRO FOR VIETNAMESE STATUTES DEFAULT STATUTE MACRO
> 
> I’ve been thinking that I’ll want this kind of conditional branching  
> when I get to statutory material, but I’ve also been thinking that the  
> structure of the style code could run out of control if you weren’t  
> careful – instead of puzzling over exceptional cases, having a  
> discussion, and coming up with a minimal solution, I could just add  
> some stringy code to the style for each case (and then add some more,  
> and then …).
> 
> Not sure what Simon will say about this idea; but if used carefully,  
> it certainly would add a welcome flexibility. Personally, I’m very  
> much in favour. Andrea? Other folks?

Anyone?

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/22 "2009-01-23T16:02:02Z")

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/23 "2009-01-23T16:22:07Z")

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/24 "2009-01-23T16:23:44Z")

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typing too fast; this:

> … (and perhaps annotating communicating someone with the plug-in to figure out which particular  
> string or annotations to pass on).

… should be:

“… (and perhaps annotating or communicating somehow …”

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:23pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/25 "2009-01-23T16:23:57Z")

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/26 "2009-01-23T16:36:32Z")

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/27 "2009-01-23T23:01:02Z")

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(waking thought – it’s 7:00am here)

We’re not actually in disagreement, are we. There is a need to  
distinguish proper footnotes that are “sticky” in all styles from  
references that should render in the main text for the bib styles;  
there is a need for CSL to be able to track the note numbers of  
references that occur in footnotes; and there is currently a known  
problem with back-referencing of Zotero references inserted directly  
into a footnote.

Basically, we both just want these issues to be sorted out. I’ve done  
my weekend hacker thing and stomped around in the sources to produce  
something that works locally; but I really should keep my mouth shut  
about implementation details, because I really don’t know what I’m  
talking about, and most of what I say just adds confusion. Simon will  
no doubt say as much when the team lets go of the 1.5 beta release,  
and he has time to read this. I know that I’m a bull in a china  
closet here, and I’ll certainly eat that humble pie.

This discussion has been really fruitful in clarifying the behaviour  
that is required for the two types of style. When the programmers get  
back to the integration side of things, we have a unified set of  
things to ask for that satisfy everyone’s needs.

If we’re agreed that CSL should be able to track note numbers (however  
that’s done), is it okay to settle the CSL syntax for the present? In  
this thread, I think the alternatives are:

Rintze:  
  
  
FULL  
  
  
SHORT

Bruce:  
  
  
FULL  
  
  
SHORT

I Bruce’s solution a lot. He has raised the point that  
consecutive-short-form is different from the field variables, with a  
call for comments. It’s a variable (like first-reference), so it  
looks okay to me. To make it clear that it’s counting the number of  
notes, rather than the number of references, would a name like  
distance-to-full-form be better?

Frank

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/28 "2009-01-24T00:21:32Z")

</div>

> > I have completed a tour through the code of Zotero, tweaking and  
> > extending the code to support the Bluebook style, for use in our  
> > faculty writing programs. Unavoidably, some of the changes have  
> > touched on CSL. To the extent that CSL contemplates Bluebook support,  
> > the functionality we have implemented here will be required. I would  
> > welcome a discussion of the changes, with a view to including them, or  
> > some concrete alternative, in official CSL. I have no special  
> > attachment to the solutions I have implemented here; but the use cases  
> > do need to be covered.
> > 
> > Here are the changes, and the use cases that they address.
> > 
> > [A] Note number backreferences
> > 
> > Example:
> > 
> > 1. John Doe, The Laws of Lilliput 123 (1900)
> > 2. Jane Roe, A Lilliputian Disputation (1905)
> > 3. Doe, supra note 1.
> > 
> > Problem:  
> > The note number is required in the back-reference.
> > 
> > Solution:
> 
> Makes sense. Care to propose the comment text for the schema?

Here is a proposed schema text for first references:

> 

## the number of a footnote containing the first reference to this

## item. value is a positive integer if the first reference is

## in a footnote.

“first-reference-footnote-number”

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/29 "2009-01-24T01:01:17Z")

</div>

…

> Here is a proposed schema text for first references:
> 
> > 
> 
> ## the number of a footnote containing the first reference to this
> 
> ## item. value is a positive integer if the first reference is
> 
> ## in a footnote.
> 
> “first-reference-footnote-number”

I think this may be a little too close to the metal/presentational.  
What happens if the style uses endnotes? ATM I can’t see any problem  
with “first-reference-note-number,” since I don’t believe this would  
apply to non-note styles?

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 24, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/30 "2009-01-24T05:22:22Z")

</div>

> …
> 
> > Here is a proposed schema text for first references:
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > ## the number of a footnote containing the first reference to this
> > 
> > ## item. value is a positive integer if the first reference is
> > 
> > ## in a footnote.
> > 
> > “first-reference-footnote-number”
> 
> I think this may be a little too close to the metal/presentational.  
> What happens if the style uses endnotes? ATM I can’t see any problem  
> with “first-reference-note-number,” since I don’t believe this would  
> apply to non-note styles?

Very true. As far as I know this would not be needed by non-note styles.  
Amended text might be …

> 

## the number of a note containing the first reference to this

## item. value is a positive integer if the first reference is

## in a note.

“first-reference-note-number”

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/31 "2009-01-26T22:23:41Z")

</div>

So I’m adding this ATM. I wonder, should we define this a little more  
tightly? E.g. something like:

“The number of a preceding note containing the first reference to this  
item. Relevant only for note-based styles.”

…?

So, for example, the variable would be null if this was a first reference.

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 12:27am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/32 "2009-01-27T00:27:36Z")

</div>

> > Very true. As far as I know this would not be needed by non-note styles.  
> > Amended text might be …
> > 
> > > 
> > 
> > ## the number of a note containing the first reference to this
> > 
> > ## item. value is a positive integer if the first reference is
> > 
> > ## in a note.
> > 
> > “first-reference-note-number”
> 
> So I’m adding this ATM. I wonder, should we define this a little more  
> tightly? E.g. something like:
> 
> “The number of a preceding note containing the first reference to this  
> item. Relevant only for note-based styles.”
> 
> …?
> 
> So, for example, the variable would be null if this was a first reference.

Sounds good. The value might be available, but it would be ignored by  
bibliography-based styles.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/33 "2009-01-27T16:50:55Z")

</div>

OK, I added it.

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/csl-bluebook-extensions/532/34 "2009-01-28T04:21:06Z")

</div>

> > Sounds good. The value might be available, but it would be ignored by  
> > bibliography-based styles.
> 
> OK, I added it.

Great! Re that opening salvo of issues relating to cases that I  
posted a few days ago, I’d like to take those off the table for the  
time being. There will be a bundle of potential additons to consider,  
and it’s probably better to gather them into one package, for  
consideration at a time of year when everyone has time available.  
I’ve set up our local version of Zotero, that will be used by me and  
by students, to do forward and backward migration to the main trunk  
schema. That will allow us to go forward with implementation, learn  
from our mistakes, and offer a more orderly set of proposals to  
CSL-dev.

Frank

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