# container-author

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [February 24, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827 "2010-02-24T23:01:35Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 13\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/1 "2010-02-24T23:01:35Z")

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Hi Bruce or Rintze–

I’m trying to map bookAuthor in Zotero to “container-author” in CSL (looks like it’s still there in CSL 1.0), but I need a label: “by”, as in:

Friedman, Milton. “Introduction.” In The Road to Serfdom, by F. A. Hayek. Anniversary ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994.

Would it be possible to add this label?

Also, i’m coming back to edit styles after a long break and it looks like the schema was moved to bitbucket in the meantime–where can I locate the labels file on the new site?

Thanks,  
Elena

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/2 "2010-02-24T23:14:15Z")

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> Hi Bruce or Rintze–
> 
> I’m trying to map bookAuthor in Zotero to “container-author” in CSL (looks like it’s still there in CSL 1.0), but I need a label: “by”, as in:
> 
> Friedman, Milton. “Introduction.” In The Road to Serfdom, by F. A. Hayek. Anniversary ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994.
> 
> Would it be possible to add this label?
> 
> Also, i’m coming back to edit styles after a long break and it looks like the schema was moved to bitbucket in the meantime–where can I locate the labels file on the new site?

They’re here: [http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/](http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/)

List of Bruce’s projects here: [Bitbucket](http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/)

Frank

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**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 4:31am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/3 "2010-02-25T04:31:17Z")

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> > Hi Bruce or Rintze–
> > 
> > I’m trying to map bookAuthor in Zotero to “container-author” in CSL (looks like it’s still there in CSL 1.0), but I need a label: “by”, as in:
> > 
> > Friedman, Milton. “Introduction.” In The Road to Serfdom, by F. A. Hayek. Anniversary ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994.
> > 
> > Would it be possible to add this label?
> > 
> > Also, i’m coming back to edit styles after a long break and it looks like the schema was moved to bitbucket in the meantime–where can I locate the labels file on the new site?
> 
> They’re here: [http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/](http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/)
> 
> List of Bruce’s projects here: [Bitbucket](http://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/)

Frank–Thanks! Elena

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/4 "2010-02-25T06:29:38Z")

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In the short term, you could redefine the “editor” term for this, although  
that of course won’t localize:

by

I’d be happy to add “by” to the list of terms, if the others agree it would  
be useful (which I guess it is).

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [February 25, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/5 "2010-02-25T08:22:34Z")

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> > Hi Bruce or Rintze–
> > 
> > I’m trying to map bookAuthor in Zotero to “container-author” in CSL (looks  
> > like it’s still there in CSL 1.0), but I need a label: “by”, as in:
> > 
> > Friedman, Milton. “Introduction.” In The Road to Serfdom, by F. A. Hayek.  
> > Anniversary ed. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1994.
> > 
> > Would it be possible to add this label?
> 
> In the short term, you could redefine the “editor” term for this, although  
> that of course won’t localize:
> 
> by
> 
> I’d be happy to add “by” to the list of terms, if the others agree it would  
> be useful (which I guess it is).

-

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/6 "2010-02-28T17:06:28Z")

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I don’t see anything wrong with adding “by”.

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/7 "2010-02-28T20:00:06Z")

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Term added:

> **[bdarcus / CSL Schema - 5d7824f](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/commits/5d7824f552a3/)**
>
> Add "by" term

  

> **[bdarcus / CSL Locales - 21501c8](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/commits/21501c812cc1/)**
>
> Add "by" term
> Add short form of "no date" term
> Put some terms in alphabetical order

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [February 28, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/8 "2010-02-28T22:15:40Z")

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Rintze–

Thanks, but I wasn’t clear enough in what’s needed–“by” actually needs to be a role for container-author, so this is possible:

So in locales it should look like this:

by

As in, short for “written by”. Does this make sense?

Thanks!  
Elena

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/9 "2010-03-01T09:22:01Z")

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Yes. I have some questions though:

- should we be worried about substitution, or is it unlikely that  
"container-author" will substitute for the “author” variable? Currently the  
terms for the “author” variable either do not exist (form=“verb” and  
"verb-short") or are explicitly set to an empty string (form=“long” and  
"short"), so your proposal might conflict with style author expectations.
- do you know if there is also a need for written by?
- a general question on CSL and CSL processing: CSL styles allow you to  
customize terms (using cs:locale). Which terms are allowed is determined by  
the list of terms in csl-terms.rnc. My question is whether it is (or should  
be) possible to define terms in styles, that are not included in the locale  
files. Examples would be the “container-author” term suggested above, or a  
term for “author” with form=“verb”.

Rintze

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**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:59am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/10 "2010-03-01T09:59:32Z")

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> > Thanks, but I wasn’t clear enough in what’s needed–“by” actually needs to  
> > be a role for container-author, so this is possible:
> > 
> > So in locales it should look like this:
> > 
> > by
> > 
> > As in, short for “written by”. Does this make sense?
> 
> Yes. I have some questions though:
> 
> - should we be worried about substitution, or is it unlikely that  
> “container-author” will substitute for the “author” variable? Currently the  
> terms for the “author” variable either do not exist (form=“verb” and  
> “verb-short”) or are explicitly set to an empty string (form=“long” and  
> “short”), so your proposal might conflict with style author expectations.

I don’t think this is a problem. In effect, Elena’s request is for a  
term to match the container-author variable. It could be set empty by  
default, and filled in in the locale section of the style for the  
special purpose for which it will be used. The main advantage of  
having it in there it to avoid the need for a messy conditional and  
make the style more compact.

> - do you know if there is also a need for written by?

> - a general question on CSL and CSL processing: CSL styles allow you to  
> customize terms (using cs:locale). Which terms are allowed is determined by  
> the list of terms in csl-terms.rnc. My question is whether it is (or should  
> be) possible to define terms in styles, that are not included in the locale  
> files. Examples would be the “container-author” term suggested above, or a  
> term for “author” with form=“verb”.

How would that affect validation?

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**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 10:01am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/11 "2010-03-01T10:01:09Z")

</div>

> Thanks, but I wasn’t clear enough in what’s needed–“by” actually needs to be a role for container-author, so this is possible:
> 
> So in locales it should look like this:
> 
> by
> 
> As in, short for “written by”. Does this make sense?
> 
> Yes. I have some questions though:
> 
> - should we be worried about substitution, or is it unlikely that “container-author” will substitute for the “author” variable? Currently the terms for the “author” variable either do not exist (form=“verb” and “verb-short”) or are explicitly set to an empty string (form=“long” and “short”), so your proposal might conflict with style author expectations.

not so far. container-author so far has only been needed for a case when there is a section (intro, epilogue, chapter) written by one author in a work by another (the latter being container-author).

> - do you know if there is also a need for written by?

not in my styles, although it may be in theory.

> - a general question on CSL and CSL processing: CSL styles allow you to customize terms (using cs:locale). Which terms are allowed is determined by the list of terms in csl-terms.rnc. My question is whether it is (or should be) possible to define terms in styles, that are not included in the locale files. Examples would be the “container-author” term suggested above, or a term for “author” with form=“verb”.

i don’t mind setting this in styles, but container-author case i outlined above is common to many styles and has been requested on forums.

> **[author book vs author book section](https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/1098/author-book-vs-author-book-section/)**
>
> Perhaps I'm missing the obvious but for book-sections it often does not seem to be clear how one adds the author of the book in which the book-section (like a letter written by someone else) was published.

> **[Introduction by](https://forums.zotero.org/discussion/917/introduction-by/#Item_30)**
>
> I like that I can select different kinds of "authors" like the translator and editor, but I would also like to see a category for "Introduction by."

Elena

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 10:10am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/12 "2010-03-01T10:10:46Z")

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Not. Validation of terms is totally agnostic to the presence or absence of  
specific forms, other than that the forms that are allowed are limited to  
"long", “verb”, “short”, “verb-short”, “symbol”.

RintzeOn Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Frank Bennett \<@Frank\_Bennett\>wrote:

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [March 1, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author/827/13 "2010-03-01T21:15:24Z")

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Done:

> **[bdarcus / CSL Locales - 27ffec0](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-locales/commits/27ffec05a6d7/)**
>
> Adding container-author term (form="verb-short")

  

> **[bdarcus / CSL Schema - 288b0a0](https://bitbucket.org/bdarcus/csl-schema/commits/288b0a07a2bb/)**
>
> Add "container-author" to the list of terms

I’m contemplating to leave the “by” term be, if there are no complaints. It  
might be useful for some other cases.

Rintze