# container-author/editor?

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [January 6, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404 "2008-01-06T16:59:43Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404/1 "2008-01-06T16:59:43Z")

</div>

A few times on the Zotero forum a user has been wanting to distinguish  
a contributor from a book contributor. For example, one person wrote:

“Marilynne Robinson is the author of an introduction to a collection  
of short stories by the author Kate Chopin. I have made a “book  
section” object that has Robinson as the primary author, Title and  
Book Title are clear, but I don’t know where to store Chopin other  
than Extra…”

I believe this is the book in question:

[http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The\_Awakening](http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The_Awakening)

Elena has also mentioned a simillar case before.

We used to be able to do this with the “relation” attribute, but that  
dropped out with the move to the more flat model. This is a negative  
consequence of that move.

So the question is, do we need to add “container-author” and (maybe)  
“container-editor” to be able to distinguish these?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 9:02pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404/2 "2008-01-06T21:02:56Z")

</div>

> A few times on the Zotero forum a user has been wanting to distinguish  
> a contributor from a book contributor. For example, one person wrote:
> 
> “Marilynne Robinson is the author of an introduction to a collection  
> of short stories by the author Kate Chopin. I have made a “book  
> section” object that has Robinson as the primary author, Title and  
> Book Title are clear, but I don’t know where to store Chopin other  
> than Extra…”
> 
> I believe this is the book in question:
> 
> [http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The\_Awakening](http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The_Awakening)
> 
> Elena has also mentioned a simillar case before.
> 
> We used to be able to do this with the “relation” attribute, but that  
> dropped out with the move to the more flat model. This is a negative  
> consequence of that move.
> 
> So the question is, do we need to add “container-author” and (maybe)  
> “container-editor” to be able to distinguish these?

container-author would be great.

i added a ticket for an analogous creator type in zotero but it’s not  
likely to happen any time soon:  
[https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/872](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/872)

this is only necessary when a book by one author contains an  
introduction or afterword by another:

George Lipsitz, “Creating Dangerously: The Blues Life of Johnny  
Otis,” introduction to Upside Your Head! Rhythm and Blues on Central  
Avenue, by Johnny Otis (Hanover: University Press of New England,  
1993), xvii-xxxv.

“container-editor” is the same as the current “editor” so I don’t  
think it’s necessary.

Best,  
Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 6, 2008, 9:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404/3 "2008-01-06T21:24:04Z")

</div>

Elena Razlogova wrote:

> > A few times on the Zotero forum a user has been wanting to distinguish  
> > a contributor from a book contributor. For example, one person wrote:
> > 
> > “Marilynne Robinson is the author of an introduction to a collection  
> > of short stories by the author Kate Chopin. I have made a “book  
> > section” object that has Robinson as the primary author, Title and  
> > Book Title are clear, but I don’t know where to store Chopin other  
> > than Extra…”
> > 
> > I believe this is the book in question:
> > 
> > [http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The\_Awakening](http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The_Awakening)
> > 
> > Elena has also mentioned a simillar case before.
> > 
> > We used to be able to do this with the “relation” attribute, but that  
> > dropped out with the move to the more flat model. This is a negative  
> > consequence of that move.
> > 
> > So the question is, do we need to add “container-author” and (maybe)  
> > “container-editor” to be able to distinguish these?
> 
> container-author would be great.
> 
> i added a ticket for an analogous creator type in zotero but it’s not  
> likely to happen any time soon:  
> [#872 (add "author of work" creator type to "book section") – Zotero](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/872)
> 
> this is only necessary when a book by one author contains an  
> introduction or afterword by another:
> 
> George Lipsitz, “Creating Dangerously: The Blues Life of Johnny  
> Otis,” introduction to Upside Your Head! Rhythm and Blues on Central  
> Avenue, by Johnny Otis (Hanover: University Press of New England,  
> 1993), xvii-xxxv.

The case I was looking at would be citing the introduction. So if citing  
Otis, then:

```
author = Otis
container-author = Lipsitz

```

I’m not sure it would work the same for your case, since the relation is  
reversed. We’d probably have to call that “part-author” or some such.

Right?

> “container-editor” is the same as the current “editor” so I don’t  
> think it’s necessary.

Yeah, good point.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [January 7, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404/4 "2008-01-07T02:11:02Z")

</div>

> Elena Razlogova wrote:
> 
> > > A few times on the Zotero forum a user has been wanting to  
> > > distinguish  
> > > a contributor from a book contributor. For example, one person  
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > “Marilynne Robinson is the author of an introduction to a collection  
> > > of short stories by the author Kate Chopin. I have made a “book  
> > > section” object that has Robinson as the primary author, Title and  
> > > Book Title are clear, but I don’t know where to store Chopin other  
> > > than Extra…”
> > > 
> > > I believe this is the book in question:
> > > 
> > > [http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The\_Awakening](http://www.ereader.com/product/detail/11531?book=The_Awakening)
> > > 
> > > Elena has also mentioned a simillar case before.
> > > 
> > > We used to be able to do this with the “relation” attribute, but  
> > > that  
> > > dropped out with the move to the more flat model. This is a negative  
> > > consequence of that move.
> > > 
> > > So the question is, do we need to add “container-author” and (maybe)  
> > > “container-editor” to be able to distinguish these?
> > 
> > container-author would be great.
> > 
> > i added a ticket for an analogous creator type in zotero but it’s not  
> > likely to happen any time soon:  
> > [#872 (add "author of work" creator type to "book section") – Zotero](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/872)
> > 
> > this is only necessary when a book by one author contains an  
> > introduction or afterword by another:
> > 
> > George Lipsitz, “Creating Dangerously: The Blues Life of Johnny  
> > Otis,” introduction to Upside Your Head! Rhythm and Blues on Central  
> > Avenue, by Johnny Otis (Hanover: University Press of New England,  
> > 1993), xvii-xxxv.
> 
> The case I was looking at would be citing the introduction. So if  
> citing  
> Otis, then:
> 
> author = Otis  
> container-author = Lipsitz
> 
> I’m not sure it would work the same for your case, since the  
> relation is  
> reversed. We’d probably have to call that “part-author” or some such.
> 
> Right?

I’m not sure what you mean–my case is an introduction to a book also  
(the introduction just has a title). Your case above would look like  
this:

Marylin Robinson, introduction to The Awakening, by Kate Chopin (New  
York: Bantam Books, 2003), 1-12.

In both cases:

author=Lipsitz/Robinson  
container-author=Otis/Chopin

Best,  
Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [January 7, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/container-author-editor/404/5 "2008-01-07T03:14:18Z")

</div>

Elena Razlogova wrote:

…

> I’m not sure what you mean–my case is an introduction to a book also  
> (the introduction just has a title). Your case above would look like  
> this:
> 
> Marylin Robinson, introduction to The Awakening, by Kate Chopin (New  
> York: Bantam Books, 2003), 1-12.
> 
> In both cases:
> 
> author=Lipsitz/Robinson  
> container-author=Otis/Chopin

No. I’m saying in “my” case the author is Robinson/Otis, and in “your’s”  
it’s Lipsitz/Chopin. That’s why I say the relation is reversed.

The title ALWAYS refers to the cited item, and never to any related  
items (container, part, series, etc.). The same is true of author and  
other creators. Editor is an exception. For one thing, it’s not a  
primary creator. For another, we simplify things for convenience. More  
properly “editor” can be understood as really short-hand for  
“container-editor” in the case of chapters, and simply “editor” when  
dealing with whole (edited) books.

In short, the variables depend on context.

This happens to work well for formatting, though. Otherwise, you’d have  
to move around variables and macros all the time. This way you don’t.

Bruce