# cms on particles

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [September 5, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755 "2009-09-05T15:25:40Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 5\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 5, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755/1 "2009-09-05T15:25:40Z")

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So CMS actually has a few pages just on this topic, beyond what Frank  
and I recently discussed.

Some excerpts:

French and Spanish:

For last names only (or in sorting?) “de is often dropped. Its  
occasional retention, in de Gaulle, for example, is suggested by  
tradition rather than logic.”

But “La” or “Le” is not dropped.

German, Italian, Portuguese:

“In the original languages, particles … are usually dropped when the  
last name is used alone. But if the form with the particle is the one  
familiar to English speakers, it should be used.”

They include Humbolt, where they drop the “von”

Dutch:

particle is lowercased in full name, but uppercased in only last name  
(or sort form?)

Arabic:

The prefixes (“al”, etc.) are typically consider part of the famly name.

On suffixes:

“retained in indexing but are placed after the given name and preceded  
by a comma”

Unfortunately, nothing about how this interacts with particles (which  
takes precedence).

Of course, this is all about rendering international names in English;  
doesn’t cover other locales (though certainly may suggest them in some  
cases).

Bruce

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**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 11:00am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755/2 "2009-09-07T11:00:21Z")

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Automatic dropping of particles is going to be tricky without per-author  
locale information (or any other kind of hint on how particles should be  
handled). E.g. the “de” particle is both very common in Dutch names and in  
French/Spanish names. Whereas this particle would (usually) be dropped for  
French/Spanish names, it would be retained for Dutch ones.

Rintze

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:00pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755/3 "2009-09-07T14:00:56Z")

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I think this can probably be handled in the data so that it’s not  
really automatic.

Bruce

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:03pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755/4 "2009-09-07T14:03:46Z")

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Do you want to include support for particle-dropping in CSL 1.0? Or wouldn’t  
it require any changes to the schema?

Rintze

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/cms-on-particles/755/5 "2009-09-07T14:07:21Z")

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I don’t know. Let’s see where we stand when we get the basics in place.

Bruce