# ancient texts in zotero 2.1 styles

**URL:** <https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894>\
**Category:** CSL Development\
**Created:** [September 27, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894 "2010-09-27T17:06:27Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 17\
**Page:** 1

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![nturcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nturcan](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/nturcan)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/1 "2010-09-27T17:06:27Z")

</div>

Hi,

I have a question about the zotero 2.1 (with csl 1.0): will it be  
possible to cite ancient texts, which have locators after the title of  
book (in the field of philosophy and theology)?  
I need to know if with one single style I can cite two different forms:

1. _for contemporary books:_
  1. Jean-Luc Marion, Dieu sans l’être, Quadrige / Presse  
Universitaire de France, Paris, 1991, _pp. 55-58_.

2. _for ancient texts:_
  1. Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, _VII, 3, 1029 a_, translated by  
Translator, Publisher, City, Year, p. 247.

In the second example, in the locator after the title of book, I can use  
only numbers (without book, section etc.); I have also the page number  
at the end, but this is important only for first citation of this  
ancient text. The subsequent citacions will be just like this:  
Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, _VII, 3, 1029 a_.

EndNote uses a different item type, named Ancient Text, but Zotero have  
only one item type, Book.  
Maybe it is possible to make the difference of book and ancient book in  
csl 1.0?  
I know that I can manualy introduce these data, but if Zotero exists,  
why don’t we have this possibility?

Thank you very much,

Nicolae Turcan

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/2 "2010-09-27T18:25:52Z")

</div>

Let’s leave aside how it’s done in Endnote for a minute.

So to be precise, the data that you need here are:

1. volume
2. section
3. \_\_\_\_\_ ?

And these are “point citation” details analogous to page numbers for  
more typical texts?

E.g. you’d want to enter these in the citation dialog, as opposed to  
the item panel?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/3 "2010-09-27T18:29:50Z")

</div>

Oh, sorry, I thought this was a Zotero question. But I want to first  
establish what the issue is; am not convinced there’s any limitation  
in CSL.

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![nturcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nturcan](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/nturcan)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/4 "2010-09-27T21:13:00Z")

</div>

Pe 27.09.2010 21:25, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

> > Hi,
> > 
> > I have a question about the zotero 2.1 (with csl 1.0): will it be possible  
> > to cite ancient texts, which have locators after the title of book (in the  
> > field of philosophy and theology)?  
> > I need to know if with one single style I can cite two different forms:
> > 
> > for contemporary books:
> > 
> > Jean-Luc Marion, Dieu sans l’être, Quadrige / Presse Universitaire de  
> > France, Paris, 1991, pp. 55-58.
> > 
> > for ancient texts:
> > 
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a, translated by Translator, Publisher,  
> > City, Year, p. 247.
> > 
> > In the second example, in the locator after the title of book, I can use  
> > only numbers (without book, section etc.); I have also the page number at  
> > the end, but this is important only for first citation of this ancient text.  
> > The subsequent citacions will be just like this: Aristotel, Metaphysics,  
> > VII, 3, 1029 a.
> > 
> > EndNote uses a different item type, named Ancient Text, but Zotero have only  
> > one item type, Book.  
> > Maybe it is possible to make the difference of book and ancient book in csl  
> > 1.0?  
> > I know that I can manualy introduce these data, but if Zotero exists, why  
> > don’t we have this possibility?  
> > Let’s leave aside how it’s done in Endnote for a minute.
> 
> So to be precise, the data that you need here are:
> 
> 1. volume
> 2. section
> 3. \_\_\_\_\_ ?
> 
> And these are “point citation” details analogous to page numbers for  
> more typical texts?
> 
> E.g. you’d want to enter these in the citation dialog, as opposed to  
> the item panel?
> 
> Bruce
> 
> * * *
> 
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> 
> * * *
> 
> xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)  
> It is book, chapter, number of column:

Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a

There are some problems here:

1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).
2. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:

- book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
- page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.

A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Thank you,

Nicolae

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/5 "2010-09-27T21:19:16Z")

</div>

> It is book, chapter, number of column:
> 
> Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> 
> There are some problems here:
> 
> 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).

That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
solutions.

> 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
> 
> - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
> - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> 
> A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.

Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
We’re not there yet.

So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
Zotero (or other application ) end.

Related, where are you putting these data now?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/6 "2010-09-27T22:36:48Z")

</div>

I pinged Elena to see if she had any input, and here’s her response:

> there is a related open ticket for multiple locators:
> 
> [#936 (interface to enter several locators in the same citation) – Zotero](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936)
> 
> the linked discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. we  
> decided then that at least three locators would be required \> for classical texts, but  
> maybe frank can come up with a different solution.

Does suggest to me this likely isn’t a CSL type issue, and needs to be  
addressed in the client applications (allowing multiple locators) and  
then maybe secondarily (??) in allowing CSL to configure the order of  
these locators.

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/7 "2010-09-27T22:37:26Z")

</div>

Nicolae and Bruce–

Nicolae asked this question before:  
[http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse\_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en](http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en)

This discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. We decided then that at least three locators would be required for classical texts, hence this open ticket:

[https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936)

But maybe Frank can come up with a better solution.

Best,  
Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/8 "2010-09-28T00:11:52Z")

</div>

> Nicolae and Bruce–
> 
> Nicolae asked this question before:  
> [http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse\_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en](http://groups.google.com/group/zotero-dev/browse_thread/thread/89a5d6f1864e5ed9?hl=en)
> 
> This discussion concerns classical texts and examines various solutions. We decided then that at least three locators would be required for classical texts, hence this open ticket:
> 
> [#936 (interface to enter several locators in the same citation) – Zotero](https://www.zotero.org/trac/ticket/936)
> 
> But maybe Frank can come up with a better solution.
> 
> Best,  
> Elena
> 
> > > It is book, chapter, number of column:
> > > 
> > > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> > > 
> > > There are some problems here:
> > > 
> > > 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).
> > 
> > That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> > important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> > solutions.
> > 
> > > 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> > > This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
> > > 
> > > - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
> > > - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> > > 
> > > A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
> > 
> > Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> > We’re not there yet.
> > 
> > So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> > know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> > assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> > it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> > Zotero (or other application ) end.
> > 
> > Related, where are you putting these data now?

Related to Bruce’s followup query, a likely starting point for  
untangling this will be the desired appearance in the bibliography.  
Are the standard pinpoint locators on the ancient text side meant to  
appear in the bibliography (which would make them part of the item)?  
Or is only the title of the work to be listed, with all pinpoints  
specific to a particular reference?

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/9 "2010-09-28T03:16:59Z")

</div>

I found some sources that suggest that classical works are typically not  
included in the bibliography:

APA:  
[http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html](http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html)  
"… reference list entries are not required when you cite “ancient Greek  
and Roman works or classical religious works” (p. 179). These works are so  
widely known and available that all that is required is an in-text  
citation."

[http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2006fall/ssp100/citations.pdf](http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2006fall/ssp100/citations.pdf)  
"as long as you cite the works properly, you need not include the ancient  
sources in your bibliography."

[http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary](http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary) (seems  
to implicitly indicate the same)

The following style description (for CMoS) isn’t exactly clear whether  
pinpoint locators ever make it into the bibliography:

[http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details](http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details) (see header “17.  
Classics”)

RintzeOn Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Frank Bennett \<@Frank\_Bennett\>wrote:

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Elena\_Razlogova](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Elena\_Razlogova](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Elena_Razlogova)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/10 "2010-09-28T03:46:05Z")

</div>

> Related to Bruce’s followup query, a likely starting point for  
> untangling this will be the desired appearance in the bibliography.  
> Are the standard pinpoint locators on the ancient text side meant to  
> appear in the bibliography (which would make them part of the item)?  
> Or is only the title of the work to be listed, with all pinpoints  
> specific to a particular reference?
> 
> I found some sources that suggest that classical works are typically not included in the bibliography:
> 
> APA: [http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html](http://blog.apastyle.org/apastyle/2009/12/happy-holiday-citing-citation-of-classical-works.html)  
> “… reference list entries are not required when you cite “ancient Greek and Roman works or classical religious works” (p. 179). These works are so widely known and available that all that is required is an in-text citation.”
> 
> [Classics | Skidmore College](http://www.skidmore.edu/classics/courses/2006fall/ssp100/citations.pdf)  
> “as long as you cite the works properly, you need not include the ancient sources in your bibliography.”
> 
> [http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary](http://www.haverford.edu/classics/courses/omni/citations.html#primary) (seems to implicitly indicate the same)
> 
> The following style description (for CMoS) isn’t exactly clear whether pinpoint locators ever make it into the bibliography:
> 
> [http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details](http://nutsandbolts.washcoll.edu/chicago.html#details) (see header “17. Classics”)

CMS 16:

"14.256 Where to cite classical references

Classical primary source references are ordinarily given in text or notes. They are included in a bibliography only when the reference is to information or annotation supplied by a modern author"

So the answer for CMS is no.

Best,  
Elena

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![nturcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nturcan](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/nturcan)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/11 "2010-09-28T15:39:53Z")

</div>

Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:

> > It is book, chapter, number of column:
> > 
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> > 
> > There are some problems here:
> > 
> > 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in Zotero 2.1).  
> > That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> > important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> > solutions.
> 
> > 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> > This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a citation:
> > 
> > - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only numbers;
> > - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> > 
> > A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.  
> > Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> > We’re not there yet.
> 
> So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> Zotero (or other application ) end.
> 
> Related, where are you putting these data now?
> 
> Bruce
> 
> * * *
> 
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> 
> * * *
> 
> xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)  
> Hi,  
> I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple  
> positions of the different locators.  
> I have one single style (footnote & bibliography - Romanian Humanities  
> or INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:

1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.  
Aristotel, /Metaphysics/, VII, 4, 1008 a
2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end;  
e.g. Turcan, /About Aristotel/, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.

With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these  
different positions.  
Thank you very much,

Nicolae

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/12 "2010-09-28T17:24:37Z")

</div>

OK, I understand.

But are they really different positions, or does the first one just  
not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)  
in the first example?

Bruce

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![nturcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nturcan](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/nturcan)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/13 "2010-09-28T18:44:46Z")

</div>

Pe 28.09.2010 20:24, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:\> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:

> > Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:
> > 
> > It is book, chapter, number of column:
> > 
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> > 
> > There are some problems here:
> > 
> > 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in  
> > Zotero 2.1).
> > 
> > That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> > important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> > solutions.
> > 
> > 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and  
> > a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> > This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a  
> > citation:
> > 
> > - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only  
> > numbers;
> > - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> > 
> > A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
> > 
> > Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> > We’re not there yet.
> > 
> > So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> > know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> > assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> > it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> > Zotero (or other application ) end.
> > 
> > Related, where are you putting these data now?
> > 
> > Bruce
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> > [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> > [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> > [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)
> > 
> > Hi,  
> > I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions  
> > of the different locators.  
> > I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or  
> > INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:
> > 
> > 1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.  
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
> > 2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.  
> > Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.
> > 
> > With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these  
> > different positions.  
> > OK, I understand.
> 
> But are they really different positions, or does the first one just  
> not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)  
> in the first example?
> 
> Bruce
> 
> * * *
> 
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> 
> * * *
> 
> xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)  
> There is no page number for the ancient text, in the field of philosophy  
> or theology. We need two positions. This is the reason for a new item  
> type, Ancient Text, would resolve this problem.

Thank you,

Nicolae

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@Bruce\_D\_Arcus1](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Bruce_D_Arcus1)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/14 "2010-09-28T19:15:52Z")

</div>

Are you reading everything I write? I think were talking past each other.

> Pe 28.09.2010 20:24, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:
> 
> > > Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:
> > > 
> > > It is book, chapter, number of column:
> > > 
> > > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> > > 
> > > There are some problems here:
> > > 
> > > 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible  
> > > in  
> > > Zotero 2.1).
> > > 
> > > That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> > > important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> > > solutions.
> > > 
> > > 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text)  
> > > and  
> > > a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> > > This is important for different kind of locators in different position  
> > > in a  
> > > citation:
> > > 
> > > - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words,  
> > > only  
> > > numbers;
> > > - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the  
> > > number.On Sep 28, 2010 2:44 PM, “nturcan” \<@nturcan\> wrote:  
> > > On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 11:39 AM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:  
> > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:
> > > 
> > > A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
> > > 
> > > Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> > > We’re not there yet.
> > > 
> > > So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> > > know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> > > assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> > > it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> > > Zotero (or other application ) end.
> > > 
> > > Related, where are you putting these data now?
> > > 
> > > Bruce

* * *

> > > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> > > and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> > > accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> > > [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> > > 
> > > * * *
> > > 
> > > xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> > > [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> > > [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)
> > > 
> > > Hi,  
> > > I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple  
> > > positions  
> > > of the different locators.  
> > > I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or  
> > > INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:
> > > 
> > > 1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.  
> > > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
> > > 2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end;  
> > > e.g.  
> > > Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.
> > > 
> > > With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these  
> > > different positions.  
> > > OK, I understand.
> > 
> > But are they really different positions, or does the first one just  
> > not include the publication information? Which is the page number(s)  
> > in the first example?
> > 
> > Bruce

* * *

> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> > [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> > [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> > [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)  
> > There is no page number for the ancient text, in the field of philosophy  
> > or theology. We need two positions. This is the reason for a new item  
> > type, Ancient Text, would resolve this problem.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Nicolae

* * *

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Rintze\_Zelle](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/rintze_zelle/32/175_2.png) [@Rintze\_Zelle](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Rintze_Zelle)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/15 "2010-09-28T19:47:17Z")

</div>

This might clarify things a bit:

> **[Corpus Aristotelicum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Aristotelicum)**
>
> \[\*\]: Generally agreed to be spurious
> The Corpus Aristotelicum is the collection of Aristotle's works that have survived from antiquity through medieval manuscript transmission. These texts, as opposed to Aristotle's works that were lost or intentionally destroyed, are technical philosophical treatises from within Aristotle's school. Reference to them is made according to the organization of Immanuel Bekker's nineteenth-century edition, which in turn is based on ancient classifications of these w...

So for “Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029a”, the “1029a” corresponds to  
the page (position). More here:

> **[Stephanus pagination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_pagination)**
>
> Stephanus pagination is a system of reference and organization used in modern editions and translations of Plato (and less famously, Plutarch) based on the three volume 1578 edition of Plato's complete works translated by Joannes Serranus (Jean de Serres) and published by Henricus Stephanus (Henri Estienne) in Geneva.
> In the case of Plato's works, Stephanus pagination first divides the works into numbers that are the page numbers of each of the Stephanus edition's three volumes, and each such pa...

Rintze

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Frank\_Bennett](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex029/user_avatar/discourse.citationstyles.org/frank_bennett/32/198_2.png) [@Frank\_Bennett](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/Frank_Bennett)\
**Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/16 "2010-09-28T20:29:36Z")

</div>

> Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:
> 
> It is book, chapter, number of column:
> 
> Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> 
> There are some problems here:
> 
> 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in  
> Zotero 2.1).
> 
> That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> solutions.
> 
> 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and  
> a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a  
> citation:
> 
> - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only  
> numbers;
> - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> 
> A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
> 
> Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> We’re not there yet.
> 
> So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> Zotero (or other application ) end.
> 
> Related, where are you putting these data now?
> 
> Bruce
> 
> * * *
> 
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> 
> * * *
> 
> xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)
> 
> Hi,  
> I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions  
> of the different locators.  
> I have one single style (footnote & bibliography - Romanian Humanities or  
> INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:
> 
> 1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.  
> Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
> 2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.  
> Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.
> 
> With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these  
> different positions.

I think everyone understands the issue; we’re trying to work out a  
smooth way of addressing it.

The INTER style is a footnote-with-bibliography style. One of my  
questions was of which locators need to appear in the bibliography  
(without variation through the document), and which need to appear in  
footnotes only (and to vary across the document). Can you provide  
that information?

Thanks,  
Frank

---

<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![nturcan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/278dde/32.png) [@nturcan](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/u/nturcan)\
**Post date:** [September 29, 2010, 3:46am UTC](https://discourse.citationstyles.org/t/ancient-texts-in-zotero-2-1-styles/894/17 "2010-09-29T03:46:47Z")

</div>

Pe 28.09.2010 23:29, Frank Bennett a scris:\> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 12:39 AM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:

> > Pe 28.09.2010 00:19, Bruce D’Arcus a scris:
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 5:13 PM, nturcan\<@nturcan\> wrote:
> > 
> > It is book, chapter, number of column:
> > 
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 3, 1029 a
> > 
> > There are some problems here:
> > 
> > 1. I can’t use many locators in Zotero UI, for citations (is it possible in  
> > Zotero 2.1).
> > 
> > That may be, but that doesn’t mean we can’t change it. It’s really  
> > important that we first understand the problem before we move on to  
> > solutions.
> > 
> > 1. I can’t make the difference between a book (which is an ancient text) and  
> > a book (which is not an ancient text) in CSL.  
> > This is important for different kind of locators in different position in a  
> > citation:
> > 
> > - book, chapter, section, column - after title and WITHOUT any words, only  
> > numbers;
> > - page number: at the end of the citation, with p./pp. before the number.
> > 
> > A new item type, like ‘Ancient Text’, will resolve the second problem.
> > 
> > Yeah, we’re not adding new types until we have a clear need to do so.  
> > We’re not there yet.
> > 
> > So can you please answer each of the questions I asked you? I need to  
> > know in particular, if these are details of the precise citation (I  
> > assume footnote in your case), or if it’s really item data. I assume  
> > it is the former, which means we first need to deal with this on the  
> > Zotero (or other application ) end.
> > 
> > Related, where are you putting these data now?
> > 
> > Bruce
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> > [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> > [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> > [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)
> > 
> > Hi,  
> > I’m not interested now about multiple locators, but about multiple positions  
> > of the different locators.  
> > I have one single style (footnote& bibliography - Romanian Humanities or  
> > INTER style) and one single item type - book. But i have two positions:
> > 
> > 1. for the ancient text, locators come after the title of the book; e.g.  
> > Aristotel, Metaphysics, VII, 4, 1008 a
> > 2. for the contemporary books, locators (e.g. pages) come at the end; e.g.  
> > Turcan, About Aristotel, City, Publisher, 2010, pp. 10-12.
> > 
> > With one single item type I can’t put the different locators in these  
> > different positions.  
> > I think everyone understands the issue; we’re trying to work out a  
> > smooth way of addressing it.
> 
> The INTER style is a footnote-with-bibliography style. One of my  
> questions was of which locators need to appear in the bibliography  
> (without variation through the document), and which need to appear in  
> footnotes only (and to vary across the document). Can you provide  
> that information?
> 
> Thanks,  
> Frank
> 
> > Thank you very much,
> > 
> > Nicolae
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> > and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> > accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> > [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> > 
> > * * *
> > 
> > xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> > [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> > [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)
> 
> * * *
> 
> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances  
> and start using them to simplify application deployment and  
> accelerate your shift to cloud computing.  
> [Best Open Source Mac Front-Ends 2023](http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev)
> 
> * * *
> 
> xbiblio-devel mailing list  
> [xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net](mailto:xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net)  
> [xbiblio-devel List Signup and Options](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel)  
> The both types of locators appears only in the footnotes. No one in  
> bibliography.  
> Thanks,  
> Nicolae